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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mateomiguel wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
Facts:
1) Human beings will always be engaged in war. Always. |
I don't agree with this cynical appraisal of our future. Thanks for your opinion about the future of our species; when you can prove it's a fact, let me know. |
you can't really PROVE the future, but you can look at previous trends and take a guess at what will happen. |
Yes, you definitely can do that, and I've all ready agreed that based on past trends it's very likely that humanity won't become a peaceful species anytime soon.
That doesn't mean it's impossible, though, and again I'd further say that anyone declaring it impossible is just working against that possibility with their pessimism. There was a time in America when many people thought we'd be a slave-bearing nation forever, too. Things can change, if enough people want them to. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
As an ex-Canadian soldier(grunt in the jr. ranks...'75-'83), who served in peacetime(no fault of mine), I can assert that soldiering is indeed a noble profession...even in peacetime such soldiering involves suffering, hardship and sacrifice. Even today, I would maintain, combat arms soldiers are the only ones on a public payroll, in my ever so humble opinion, that deserve public praise.
As for Steelrails, who asserts that the "over-glamorization" of the military belongs to the "right wing", all I can say is: are you friggin' kidding me?
Soviet, Communist Chinese, Cuban, Vietnamese, East German, etc., etc., propaganda, anyone? |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| particularly by the right-wing. |
I should however have amended the statement to say the American right-wing. However given that we were talking about an American painting, portraying American soldiers, talking about the glory of America I thought such explanations were unnecessary.
Unless we want to claim that somehow the left-wing in America glamorizes the military.
Incidentally that piece of 'art' reminds me of the kind of art one might see in Soviet/Soviet Client-State areas.
I don't object to praise for soldiers- see my post above (BTW- Fox any comments?). I'm objecting to the painting on Art Grounds- what awful, awful art- No subtlety, over-simplified emotions, bad chiaroscuro, a terrible mish-mash of the Renaissance and Romanticism (Think Raphael's School of Athens with Delacroix's Liberty Leading the People barfed all over it, dashed with a sneeze of David's Oath of the Tennis Court, and boogers of Perugino, topped off with Benjamin West Death of Wolfe militarism.). Jesus as white and handsome, rather than Semitic and homely, etc. etc..
To say nothing of the theological nature of it. Since when was America/The Constitution anointed by Christ?
Last edited by Steelrails on Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't all the police agree to kill? That's not a feather duster in that holster. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Don't all the police agree to kill? |
The police do not agree to kill when innocent lives are not in immediate danger, no. For the police, killing is a last resort to save an innocent life. For a soldier, it's just their duty. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I don't object to praise for soldiers- see my post above (BTW- Fox any comments?). |
I responded to your post, it's at the bottom of page 5.  |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I ordered a framed copy to hang in my gun room. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Fox: Firstly, if the concept of "principal"(sic) is so GD important to you, you might want to learn how to SPELL the word....
Secondly, college boy(girl), don't give us this BS how "park rangers" or whoever on a public payroll, are some selfless impoverished wretches who sacrifice themselves while building a socialist utopia, is a truism. It ain't. I know private-sector min. wage workers who clean the downtown of my hometown so that the left-lib elite can avoid the poo left behind by the scumbags defended by certain phonies, such as certain Dave's posters, so they can tip toe through the...ahem...tulips. Public payroll civilians, who VERY often denigrate military personnel(and wouldn't be caught dead touching a true member of the working class), maintain a facade of a proletarian "identity". Those low paid types do more to maintain society than your heroes on a public payroll.
Get off your high horse. Are you a hogwan teacher?! Do tell!
Last edited by Mosley on Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Some of those founding fathers must be very surprised to see Jesus pop up like that.
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"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison
" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin |
also;
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The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.
-- Abraham Lincoln |
What is worrying is the use of the military to represent some kind of God approved goal. I respect the troops, more so since meeting many living here in Korea. Those lost deserve the respect of remembrance, but so should those that were killed on both sides. And in this day and age where civilians make up the most causalities they too should be remembered. Placing all these troops along side Jesus points towards the interpretation of a Christian army. My criticisms are aimed at the artist.
I'm a little surprised MLK is missing from the painting though there are some non white people in there for abolition and a native American. Hang on!!! There he is! In an American army uniform next to Lincoln  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| But they still agreed to kill, meaning they're still paid killers. Historically, this willingness to kill on orders from the government has been abused quite often |
Again, the term paid-killers. Why not the term paid-defenders? or paid-reconstructionists?
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| And as American soldiers have yet again recently proven, they're also willing to kill for reasons totally unrelated to the lives of their loved ones and their neighbors. |
I think most of them serve believing they are defending their loved ones, albeit not directly. The fact that some are psycho nutjobs is irrelevant. Some charity operators are swindlers, doesn't mean charity work is a bad profession.
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| Anyone trying to make out the phrase "necessary evil" to be an oxymoron is fighting a losing battle. This phrase has strong common usage, and we all know exactly what it means. |
We know what it means, but to me when I hear the phrase 'necessary evil' I don't emotionally feel the reaction of 'evil'. I feel more close to 'burden'. Evil has provokes one reaction, necessary evil- a different one. Therefore can you really call necessary evil, evil? And yes at certain points necessary evil DOES become oxymoronic. I think this is a case.
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| Terrorists and the like can be handled by police agents operating under the principal of not killing others unless innocent lives are in immediate danger. Only soldiers require other soldiers to combat them. Anything else can be handled by properly trained police forces operating under the principal of not killing unless innocent lives are in immediate danger. |
But what about terrorists sponsored by another country? What about paramilitaries?
The reason a soldier (in the modern sense) exists is because of an attempt to reduce violence. Soldiers are combatants in uniform who are subject to specific rules and codes of conduct. While these rules are not always followed, it is hoped that they should be.
It should also be noted that the average police force in every country has a 'soldier'-esque unit operating in it.
Terrorists, paramilitaries, guerrillas, gangs, etc. exist outside the soldier framework. Sometimes these groups are so well organized and equipped that they eclipse the abilities of the police to combat them. Sometimes they form 'nations' within a nation.
Take for example the Mexican drug cartels- clearly these gangs started out as criminal enterprises, their members criminals, not soldiers. Over time their capabilities and ability to corrupt have made it impossible for the police to combat them. Who CAN combat them? Only soldiers from the Mexican military.
Or what advanced terrorist groups with bases of operation and heavy weaponry? Certainly they are beyond the capability of the police to handle.
| Quote: |
| I ordered a framed copy to hang in my gun room. |
lol. Mine's going next to the White Rhino's head and picture of my Old Shootin car inside of my bunker. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| For a soldier, it's just their duty. |
You simply don't know what you're talking about.
Steelrails: For the American military, at least, and most likely for many other countries' militaries, those individuals who want to kill are separated from the service as soon as they are identified. Psycho nutjobs are not an asset.
Last edited by CentralCali on Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
Facts:
1) Human beings will always be engaged in war. Always. |
I don't agree with this cynical appraisal of our future. Thanks for your opinion about the future of our species; when you can prove it's a fact, let me know. |
Sure, I'll get right on that.
Hey Fox, can you prove to me that human beings can achieve a total and collective peace, without having to outright lobotomize every single individual? |
No, but I also didn't state it was a fact that it would happen in the future. Rather, I stated I hoped it would happen. If you're going to make statements of fact about the future, provide proof. If you can't, you aren't making statements of facts at all, but rather predictions. |
I retract my usage of "fact" and replace it with "almost certain fact."
Hoping for no violence is fine, it's a nice thought and certainly would be a good thing if it could actually be achieved. But by proclaiming soldiers to be "paid killers" and nothing more, you are using this very very unlikely hope to spit in the faces of those who choose to take a more grounded approach to reality. I still argue that soldiers are paid defenders, and due to the circumstances they are in, have to kill to save lives. You keep saying innocent lives are not in immediate danger, but they are, they absolutely are in a warzone.
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Hopefully you'll at least consider my viewpoint. |
I understand your viewpoint just fine. I even concede that it's unlikely humans will become a peaceful species in the foreseeable future. I simply feel it's both possible and desirable, and that pessimistically dismissing that possibility can only damage our prospects of achieving such a state. |
I know you understand it, I'm asking you to consider it.
Fox, unless you physically change the human brain so that a person literally cannot harm others, there's just no way war will ever really go away. It can be dimished with laws, treaties, and what have you, but there will always be a disenfranchised group who will turn to violence. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mosley wrote: |
| Fox: Firstly, if the concept of "principal"(sic) is so GD important to you, you might want to learn how to SPELL the word.... |
Spelling errors happen. Cope with it.
| Mosley wrote: |
| Secondly, college boy(girl) ... |
I'm not interested in conversing with anyone who uses college boy as a prejorative term. People with anti-education mindsets are not worth engaging. Have a nice day, Mosley. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I ordered a framed copy to hang in my gun room. |
lol. Mine's going next to the White Rhino's head and picture of my Old Shootin car inside of my bunker. |
I had earlier allowed my mouse to mindlessly roll across Davy Crockett, and his blurb highlighted the Texas Revolution. Being northern Yankee scum myself, I wasn't very knowledgeable (beyond general stuff) about this particular period in our (read: "my") country's history, until now:
(For the bored:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_revolution |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But they still agreed to kill, meaning they're still paid killers. Historically, this willingness to kill on orders from the government has been abused quite often |
Again, the term paid-killers. Why not the term paid-defenders? or paid-reconstructionists? |
Because I don't object to defending or reconstructing. I object to their killing in situations where innocent lives are not in immediate danger. If all soldiers did was defend innocent people whose lives were in immediate danger and build things, they wouldn't be soldiers, they'd be police and constructions workers. It's the willingness to kill that defines their profession; take that away, and they aren't soldiers anymore.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And as American soldiers have yet again recently proven, they're also willing to kill for reasons totally unrelated to the lives of their loved ones and their neighbors. |
I think most of them serve believing they are defending their loved ones, albeit not directly. |
I don't care what they believed, to be honest. I'm not attacking their motivations for becoming paid killers, I'm attacking their willingness to become paid killers. I think most people want to be good at heart, even if they make bad choices at times. The same applies to soldiers. They aren't usually evil people, but rather good people that made a misguided choice due to the way they were taught to view military service.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Anyone trying to make out the phrase "necessary evil" to be an oxymoron is fighting a losing battle. This phrase has strong common usage, and we all know exactly what it means. |
We know what it means, but to me when I hear the phrase 'necessary evil' I don't emotionally feel the reaction of 'evil'. I feel more close to 'burden'. Evil has provokes one reaction, necessary evil- a different one. Therefore can you really call necessary evil, evil? |
I feel a different reaction when I think of necessary evil than I feel when I think of evil as well. I don't feel differently because it's not an evil, but rather because I understand said evil's necessity in the circumstances.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Terrorists and the like can be handled by police agents operating under the principal of not killing others unless innocent lives are in immediate danger. Only soldiers require other soldiers to combat them. Anything else can be handled by properly trained police forces operating under the principal of not killing unless innocent lives are in immediate danger. |
But what about terrorists sponsored by another country? |
Soldiers haven't proven effective at stopping said menaces. That said, one could easily consider such individuals guerilla soldiers in the service of the sponsoring country. I feel this is a little too semantic to be worth serious discussion, though. Do you really disagree?
| Steelrails wrote: |
| The reason a soldier (in the modern sense) exists is because of an attempt to reduce violence. |
And yet, they increase it with their presence.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Take for example the Mexican drug cartels- |
These exist because of ridiculous anti-drug laws. Legalize drug production, and drug cartels vanish and are replaced by legitimate businesses. The answer to drug cartels is not force, but to legalize drugs.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Or what advanced terrorist groups with bases of operation and heavy weaponry? Certainly they are beyond the capability of the police to handle. |
They've proven beyond the capability of the military to handle as well. Again, the answer to terrorism is not force. The answer is a social one.
In fact, I'd say the only time the answer is military-scale force is when you're dealing with other militaries. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails: So then, what KIND of art would you approve of to honour soldiers?
Fox: Gosh, whillikers...spelling mistakes...how about "prejorative"(sic)?
How many spelling mistakes, college boy, am "anti-education mindset[s]" types as myself allowed to tolerate? 
Aren't you for the "People"?!
Do tell. Address what I pointed out to you. |
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