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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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 Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| It's because the corporate a'holes such as Wallmart monopolise markets, corrupt their bedfellow polititians with 'special interests funding etc' to get the kind of market regualtions they like and thus can pay the poor farmer whatever they like for milk and poor farmer has to accept as there are not many other buyers. |
There's lots of buyers for milk. Even if we're just talking about straight up jugs of milk on the shelf in a store there are quite a few large supermarket chains, and tons of small ones. In addition to that, almost any business that creates food products is going to buy at least some milk products. |
Right... Then why are farmers in the UK paid something stupid like two pence per pint of milk...? |
Not quite:
Table 1: UK farm gate price of milk (pence per litre)
2004 18.45 18.47
2005 18.46 18.47
2006 17.94 17.95
2007 20.66 20.67
2008 (p) 25.91 25.93
2008 (p) Jul 25.82 25.83
(p) Aug 26.29 26.31
(p) Sep 27.00 27.02
(p) Oct 27.36 27.38
(p) Nov 27.08 27.10
(p) Dec 26.36 Excluding milk
purchased by Dairy
Farmers of Britain
26.38 Excluding milk
purchased by Dairy
Farmers of Britain
2009 (p) Jan 25.56 25.80 25.58 25.80
(p) Feb 24.68 24.90 24.69 24.90
(p) Mar 24.37 24.60 24.38 24.60
(p) Apr 23.25 23.60 23.26 23.60
(p) May 20.60 22.50 20.62 22.50
(p) Jun 22.40 22.50 22.41 22.50
(p) Jul 22.99 22.99
(p) Provisional data.
https://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/statnot/prmlkpn.pdf
In Europe, governments subsidize production which in turn causes overproduction which in turn reduces the equilibrium price of milk causing farmers to receive less per liter. This hurts farmers. The subsidies cost millions of pounds which hurts taxpayers. The bureaucracy cost millions more which hurts everyone. The surpluses have to be disposed of which costs more. Everyone loses. Nice job. Another failure of socialism. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| blackjack wrote: |
The problem is that a lot of the farms in Europe and even the states are just not economically viable without subsidies.
Average dairy herd size in Europe is only 25 cows, America it's 100 while NZ is over 250 head. And that's average so there are a lot of farms with less than 25. If you have to be paid to farm something beyond what the produce is worth, then you shouldn't be growing/producing it.
Sure getting rid of the subsidies and tariffs will hurt farmers in the short term, but in the long term it will lead to greater efficiency and the elimination of unsustainable farms (just look at korea) |
I think having small farmers in rural communities benefits our respective societies that can't be measured in mere monetary terms.
For the record I do believe that the system of farm subsidies in Europe needs to be reformed but I don't think it should be done solely to remove so called less efficient farms. |
The largest farms get the biggest subsidies. The effect of the socialist program of subsidies has been to cause a shift to larger farms. The largest farms are the ones that are economically inefficient. The average size would shrink if subsidies were ended. It is the medium sized family farm that is the most efficient. It is the medium sized family farm that would gain the most by going to a free market. |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
| blackjack wrote: |
The problem is that a lot of the farms in Europe and even the states are just not economically viable without subsidies.
Average dairy herd size in Europe is only 25 cows, America it's 100 while NZ is over 250 head. And that's average so there are a lot of farms with less than 25. If you have to be paid to farm something beyond what the produce is worth, then you shouldn't be growing/producing it.
Sure getting rid of the subsidies and tariffs will hurt farmers in the short term, but in the long term it will lead to greater efficiency and the elimination of unsustainable farms (just look at korea) |
I think having small farmers in rural communities benefits our respective societies that can't be measured in mere monetary terms.
For the record I do believe that the system of farm subsidies in Europe needs to be reformed but I don't think it should be done solely to remove so called less efficient farms. |
The largest farms get the biggest subsidies. The effect of the socialist program of subsidies has been to cause a shift to larger farms. The largest farms are the ones that are economically inefficient. The average size would shrink if subsidies were ended. It is the medium sized family farm that is the most efficient. It is the medium sized family farm that would gain the most by going to a free market. |
Sorry but this is rubbish, coming from a country that that has removed subsidies (completely) and dairy makes up a significant proportion of our economy.
The big farms (500+), provided they invested some profit wisely back into the farm e.g a new rotary milking shed, a good system of races and fertiliser, can make a lot of money. The key is to producing a high quality product (high ratio of milk solids).
The middle sized (esp the small middle sized ~100) tend to hurt the most. They don't have the economies of scale (EoS) the larger ones do, as long as they are careful with their investments, keep good cash returns for poor years (mention this later*).
The small ones will either sink or swim. A quick side note, these small farms can often be very environmentally damaging, Why you ask? that's crazy talk. Because the big farms have the EoS to afford proper treatment plants, they have more to lose if caught, come under greater scrutiny, and this is going to sound strange, sometimes it is better to have a small area very damaged than a large are moderately damaged.
Back to small farms. the removal of subsidies will kill any small farms that have been relying them. A farm of 25 cows or less selling mainstream milk that is sold at the supermarket is not viable. However the farm can be viable it they add value to their product, homemade cheeses, home stays, organics, farm tours.
I don't really have any sympathy for someone with ~25 cows have been living off subsidies and has not bothered after all these years to add value to their product. The farm up the road from my parents place has ~250 cows. It has one man and a dog doing everything.
New Zealand can make milk and cheese products and get them to Europe for less than they can make them in Europe, with a smaller carbon footprint |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
| blackjack wrote: |
The problem is that a lot of the farms in Europe and even the states are just not economically viable without subsidies.
Average dairy herd size in Europe is only 25 cows, America it's 100 while NZ is over 250 head. And that's average so there are a lot of farms with less than 25. If you have to be paid to farm something beyond what the produce is worth, then you shouldn't be growing/producing it.
Sure getting rid of the subsidies and tariffs will hurt farmers in the short term, but in the long term it will lead to greater efficiency and the elimination of unsustainable farms (just look at korea) |
I think having small farmers in rural communities benefits our respective societies that can't be measured in mere monetary terms.
For the record I do believe that the system of farm subsidies in Europe needs to be reformed but I don't think it should be done solely to remove so called less efficient farms. |
The largest farms get the biggest subsidies.
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I agree with this. In Europe subsidies as I recall are paid according to the number of particular types of animals a farmer has. The more cows for example the more money the farmer receives. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
If I was going to protest about anything, it would've been the law they passed about strippers having to be three feet away from customers during lap dances. Now that is an injustice and travesty! 
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Maybe you should consider relocating your farming operations to over here in Mass. While it certainly isn't the breadbasket of America (bad winters, rocky soil, etc.), there are farms operating out in the rural areas and the lapdancers while gyrate all over you until you get a happy ending.
Last edited by caniff on Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| *Double post*.... because my hand was getting shaky thinking about lapdancing strippers. But, hey, what does that have to do with the price of milk in Brussels? Carry on. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| *Double post*.... because my hand was getting shaky thinking about lapdancing strippers. But, hey, what does that have to do with the price of milk in Brussels? Carry on. |
Strip farming made your Brussels Sprout? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| *Double post*.... because my hand was getting shaky thinking about lapdancing strippers. But, hey, what does that have to do with the price of milk in Brussels? Carry on. |
Strip farming made your Brussels Sprout? |
Yes indeed, in Mass one can see and participate in the Ballet in all its glory. This is a direct consequence of our Puritanical heritage. |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| So you just made a mess in Mass? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| So you just made a mess in Mass? |
I've been known to. I have a mop named after me at the Mardi Gras in Springfield:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/mardi-gras-springfield
The comments say it all... |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Is this heaven?
No, it's Mardis Gras. |
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