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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:28 pm Post subject: U.S. Hopes to Strengthen Ties With China's Expanding Militar |
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Its good to see that this issue is being dealt with. China is growing in its assertiveness in the South China Sea and this has the potential to cause conflict.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/14/AR2009101403715.html
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During his first visit to China next month, President Obama hopes to strengthen ties with Beijing on efforts to combat climate change, address the global financial crisis and contain nuclear proliferation in North Korea and Iran. Perhaps most important, he also aims to improve the U.S. relationship with China's military.
The once-insular nation is broadening its international interests and investing around the globe, and its military is rapidly modernizing. So there is concern that U.S. and Chinese forces may find themselves bumping into each other without formal mechanisms in place for the two militaries to iron out disagreements. |
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The Obama administration got a taste of such a "misunderstanding" just two months into office. In early March, the U.S. Navy reconnaissance ship Impeccable was in the South China Sea hunting for Chinese submarines when it was swarmed by Chinese vessels that tried to block it and destroy its sonar equipment. A similar incident occurred in May in the Yellow Sea. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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The Chinese have built up their conventional missile forces to such an extent that a Rand Corp. report concluded in August that an attack could "cut every runway at Taiwan's half-dozen main fighter bases and destroy essentially all of the aircraft parked on ramps," allowing China total domination of the skies above Taiwan. But this strategic shift has not been accompanied by significant talks between China and the United States, which is legally bound to provide for Taiwan's defense.
The Pentagon estimates that by next year, China will deploy as many as five Jin-class submarines, each with a capacity of 12 nuclear-armed intercontinental ballistic missiles. But there is no protocol for how the American and Chinese navies should deal with incidents at sea.
China also has shown little interest in a dialogue about nuclear strategy. It now deploys mobile, solid-fuel intercontinental ballistic missiles and has more than doubled, to about 80, its supply of nuclear-armed medium-range ballistic missiles. Except for one round of talks with the Bush administration, it has shared no information on its nuclear plans.
Three years ago Washington invited the head of China's nuclear weapons command to the United States, but he has yet to come.
China knocked an old satellite out of the sky in 2007 when it tested an anti-satellite weapon, and a recent space launch came within 100 miles of the international space station. But Beijing has not talked to the United States about how to deal with the debris or how its space program, run by the army, should interact with those of other nations.
China also is believed to be working on a new fighter jet. But it has not hashed out a protocol for what to do when its airmen encounter the American military in the skies. In 2001, a Chinese fighter bumped into a U.S. Navy reconnaissance plane over Hainan Island. The fighter pilot was never found, and the Americans crash-landed on Chinese territory, sparking an 11-day standoff before the Chinese released the crew.
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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It's a great time for America to bow and back off. It's their (the Chinese) sphere. Oh well. Shouldn't have elected Nixon. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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It's a great time for America to bow and back off. It's their (the Chinese) sphere. |
I hope you are being sarcastic. What gives China the right to dominate the South China Sea and ignore International laws and agreements?
Size of thier land mass, number of their weapons? What about the other countries that have greater rights in the region according to EEZ, maritime laws etc?
The problem is likely to be that China makes a land grab and comes into conflict with a country that has defence ties with the US and all hell breaks loose.
Countries in the region are interested in seeing how China plays its cards, the US seeking to find out what the rules of the game are is just common sense.
We have been here for 5000 yrs is not a good enough reason for causing strife or acting like a bully. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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No sarcasm. If you want it to be the case or not, China will dominate East and South East Asia. Some states will hedge their bets on Uncle Sam for as long as they can but they all know what the future holds. We should catch up. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:01 am Post subject: |
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If you want it to be the case or not, China will dominate East and South East Asia |
Only if we let them. Nothing is certain.
We can believe the BS that is told to us and roll over and accept thier bullying or we can stand up and show them that we arent living in the 1500s but rather in the 21st century.
They should stay in thier country and make equal deals with counties for the resources they need. They dont need to militarise or bully. Why else do you think we created the UN for if not to create a equal playing field for all.
We can allow the strongest to dictate or we can follow democratic ideals, its our time to stand up. Nothing is etched in stone. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:12 am Post subject: |
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mises wrote: |
No sarcasm. If you want it to be the case or not, China will dominate East and South East Asia. |
What do you base this on?
The Japanese-Indian-Australio-American alliance should be more than enough to give China a run for their money.
I put America there last just to flatter your premature vision of American self-implosion. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Summer Wine wrote: |
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If you want it to be the case or not, China will dominate East and South East Asia |
Only if we let them. Nothing is certain.
We can believe the BS that is told to us and roll over and accept thier bullying or we can stand up and show them that we arent living in the 1500s but rather in the 21st century.
They should stay in thier country and make equal deals with counties for the resources they need. They dont need to militarise or bully. Why else do you think we created the UN for if not to create a equal playing field for all.
We can allow the strongest to dictate or we can follow democratic ideals, its our time to stand up. Nothing is etched in stone. |
Funnily enough the UN was created by the same globalists (many of them American citizens, like the Rockefellers) who are now bringing the US down. This is being done deliberately, and mainly on the economic front by bankrupting us and debasing the dollar. America is controlled completely by the private international banks (which own our private Federal Reserve central bank), and they are already admitting that the dollar is to be replaced by a new global currency issued by the world central bank (which they will own and control).
In other words, we are simply not going to be able to fund our military as we have done. It's as simple as that. If it's any consolation, China also has a central bank and is also controlled by the international bankers. Both our countries are slaves alike. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
mises wrote: |
No sarcasm. If you want it to be the case or not, China will dominate East and South East Asia. |
What do you base this on?
The Japanese-Indian-Australio-American alliance should be more than enough to give China a run for their money.
I put America there last just to flatter your premature vision of American self-implosion. |
Japan is in decline. America is in decline. Australia is 25 million people. I'm not being premature either. Obama forecasts 1T+ deficits for the next decade. Hows that work? Can't afford to police/dominate anymore.
In the near term nothing is certain. China has more serious near term problems than does the USA. The long term trend is clear and we all ought to prepare for that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:40 am Post subject: |
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mises wrote: |
Kuros wrote: |
mises wrote: |
No sarcasm. If you want it to be the case or not, China will dominate East and South East Asia. |
What do you base this on?
The Japanese-Indian-Australio-American alliance should be more than enough to give China a run for their money.
I put America there last just to flatter your premature vision of American self-implosion. |
Japan is in decline. America is in decline. Australia is 25 million people. I'm not being premature either. Obama forecasts 1T+ deficits for the next decade. Hows that work? Can't afford to police/dominate anymore.
In the near term nothing is certain. China has more serious near term problems than does the USA. The long term trend is clear and we all ought to prepare for that. |
The Chinese have yet to launch their first carrier group, whereas the United States has 11. So let's just cut the defense budget in half, round down, and the US alone still has 5 more carrier groups than the Chinese.
But when the US cuts its carrier fleet, it'll probably bequeath the decommissioned flattops to emerging allies, I'm thinking particularly India. India already has one and has another scheduled in 2012 and a third in 2015.
All this comes from wiki.
The naval gap here is extremely pronounced, and economic comparisons don't take into account accrued technological investment and present naval capabilities. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: |
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^ We aren't going to agree.
I take the talk of replacing the dollar very seriously. My views on the future are dominated by shifting global financial power. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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mises wrote: |
China will dominate East and South East Asia. |
With what navy? With what other military capabilities? China cannot even dominate Taiwan today or into the foreseeable future.
You are taking Beijing's wish-dreams and stating them as facts. Further, I think you are using China as a device to advance your "America is collapsing," etc. worldview. Finally, say America does indeed decide to cultivate and promote an off-shore balancing foreing policy, rather than the post-Cold War unilateral one. Does that make America smart, wise, and capable of adapting, or does it just prove that it is weak and declining? Does all such change indicate collapse to you? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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With what navy? With what other military capabilities? |
With the one that they're going to buy with the interest received on bonds held.
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China cannot even dominate Taiwan today or into the foreseeable future. |
It can completely destroy Taiwan with little effort or consequence, less American involvement. But no matter, Taiwan will over time grow closer and closer to China.
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You are taking Beijing's wish-dreams and stating them as facts. |
China is rising. This isn't up for debate. I'm certain they'll have some major problems in the near future but like America's experience with the great depression China will emerge stronger with competitors seriously weakened.
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Further, I think you are using China as a device to advance your "America is collapsing," etc. worldview. |
America isn't collapsing. It is declining (rapidly) as a global power. This doesn't mean that Americans wear burlap sacks en route to work at the Chinese owned coal mine (though about 20% of Americans might take that offer) but it does mean that it will no longer be the global policeman.
Did you miss this?:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a_A5nqmw9Dq8
A great power cannot exist without a great currency. The exorbitant privilege, as Valery d'Estaing called it, is coming to an end. Many things will change. Don't take offense. It is what it is. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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mises wrote: |
^ We aren't going to agree.
I take the talk of replacing the dollar very seriously. My views on the future are dominated by shifting global financial power. |
I agree with you about the replacement of the dollar. But if I had to cut all military spending in the US, the last I'd cut would be naval. America is an basically island (See Mahan). Canada and Mexico are not a threat. America can defend its borders best by projecting power and controlling the Pacific and the Atlantic. The Indians look ready to take the Indian Ocean, and they're an erstwhile ally. China is locked in with unfavorable geography and unfavorable geopolitical position. America can keep them tame by threatening their energy supplies.
I don't expect the Americans to change their strategy overnight, and if they abandon all other priorities (i.e., pulling out of the Middle East entirely), they will cling to this one. And yes, the American economy is just robust enough to keep 11 carrier groups going and modernized. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: |
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mises wrote: |
China is rising. This isn't up for debate. |
Yes, it is. People in Western nations have been either drooling over the mythical China market or predicting doom-and-gloom re: a Chinese resurgence in world affairs for centuries, Mises. I think you lack historical perspective on this. "China is rising." I have read and heard that in hundres of contexts, going back to the nineteenth century in American history, much further of course in Western European history.
Your doom-and-gloom about the United States also lacks the same perspective the rest of us lack: we cannot see the larger picture because we are in the middle of it, whatever it may be.
All of this notwithstanding, that which you are predicting, both with respect to China and the United States, is not only far from settled and inevitable, but it is also not necessarily on the horizon.
You are getting into the prediction business. In my view, people who engage in this business, whether reading stocks or reading Tarot cards, do the same thing: they guess. And that is what you are doing here. We are looking at the same picture in world affairs, but approaching it, apparently, from radically different worldviews. We are not going to find much common ground in this discussion, Mises. |
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