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British diplomats insult Canada
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject: British diplomats insult Canada Reply with quote

Quote:
Lord Moran, high commissioner in Ottawa between 1981 and 1984, claimed Canadians had limited talents.

"Anyone who is even moderately good at what they do - in literature, the theatre, skiing or whatever - tends to become a national figure. And anyone who stands out at all from the crowd tends to be praised to the skies and given the Order of Canada at once,"


This coming from the country that knighted Rod Stewart?!

link
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet he has bad teeth. Wink
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scotty12347



Joined: 16 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: British diplomats insult Canada Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:

This coming from the country that knighted Rod Stewart?!

He wasnt knighted...

Can you really expect any different from the British upper class?

Slightly surprised at the snide comments on here aswell.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't the whole idea behind the award that it goes to someone who does "stand out from the crowd"?
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GwangjuParents



Joined: 31 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought there was a lot of truth in the report.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Until 2006, ambassadors retiring from their post or moving country traditionally sent a valedictory dispatch to London, offering their candid personal assessment of the country in which they had served.


The British govt declassified these just now, no? This is the story, I believe.

But some of these documents date long before the pc decade and its totalitarian drive to eliminate all things "offensive" in our thinking and writing.

In any case, I always appreciate people's candid, behind-the-scenes remarks in foreign relations. And then there is this gem...

Quote:
[Some] diplomats used their letters to criticize British bureaucracy, and the sometimes dull world of international relations.

"One of the great failures of the diplomatic service has been its inability to cast off its image as bowler-hatted, pinstriped and chinless with a fondness for champagne," David Gore-Booth wrote in 1999, as he prepared to leave a posting in Delhi.

"Indeed cocktail parties are death as, I am sure 99 per cent of diplomatic service colleagues would agree," Gore-Booth wrote, bemoaning the countless receptions ambassadors are expected to host, or attend.

The Foreign Office ended the tradition of valedictory letters in 2006, after a message from Ivor Roberts -- Britain's departing ambassador to Italy - was leaked to the media.

Roberts criticized the ministry's management culture, and fondness for buzzwords. "Can it be that in wading through the plethora of business plans, capability reviews ... and other excrescences of the management age, we have indeed forgotten what diplomacy is all about," he wrote.


I would wager a million dollars, On the Other Hand, that it was a Candian nationalist who read this story, then repackaged it as a story having to do primarily with someone daring to insult the great, peacekeeping, Molson-drinking Canadians. Should they not return to fighting with Russia over who gets to plant their flag in the arctic?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Quote:
Until 2006, ambassadors retiring from their post or moving country traditionally sent a valedictory dispatch to London, offering their candid personal assessment of the country in which they had served.


The British govt declassified these just now, no? This is the story, I believe.

But some of these documents date long before the pc decade and its totalitarian drive to eliminate all things "offensive" in our thinking and writing.

In any case, I always appreciate people's candid, behind-the-scenes remarks in foreign relations. And then there is this gem...

Quote:
[Some] diplomats used their letters to criticize British bureaucracy, and the sometimes dull world of international relations.

"One of the great failures of the diplomatic service has been its inability to cast off its image as bowler-hatted, pinstriped and chinless with a fondness for champagne," David Gore-Booth wrote in 1999, as he prepared to leave a posting in Delhi.

"Indeed cocktail parties are death as, I am sure 99 per cent of diplomatic service colleagues would agree," Gore-Booth wrote, bemoaning the countless receptions ambassadors are expected to host, or attend.

The Foreign Office ended the tradition of valedictory letters in 2006, after a message from Ivor Roberts -- Britain's departing ambassador to Italy - was leaked to the media.

Roberts criticized the ministry's management culture, and fondness for buzzwords. "Can it be that in wading through the plethora of business plans, capability reviews ... and other excrescences of the management age, we have indeed forgotten what diplomacy is all about," he wrote.


I would wager a million dollars, On the Other Hand, that it was a Candian nationalist who read this story, then repackaged it as a story having to do primarily with someone daring to insult the great, peacekeeping, Molson-drinking Canadians. Should they not return to fighting with Russia over who gets to plant their flag in the arctic?



You would lose that bet, as in the entire story there is only ONE tiny paragraph plus one sentence/phrase about Canadians out of more than 20 paragraphs.

Hardly sounds like it has anything to do with Canadians primarily. In the end the ambassador comes off as some ill-bred twit giving an ill-informed opinion...ambassadors don't normally hobnob with the hoi polloi
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would wager a million dollars, On the Other Hand, that it was a Candian nationalist who read this story, then repackaged it as a story having to do primarily with someone daring to insult the great, peacekeeping, Molson-drinking Canadians. Should they not return to fighting with Russia over who gets to plant their flag in the arctic?


Well, the story is from the Associated Press. But yeah, I found it on Yahoo Canada, where the headline emphazised the insults against Canada. And I can't really blame Yahoo Canada for doing that, since the comments on Canada would probably be the most interesting to their target audience.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
...in the entire story there is only ONE tiny paragraph plus one sentence/phrase about Canadians out of more than 20 paragraphs.

Hardly sounds like it has anything to do with Canadians primarily.


My point exactly, that is, re: the original ap story.

But someone seized upon that one tiny paragraph and then repackaged the story under the headline "Canadians 'deeply unimpressive,' British Diplomat's Letter Says [sic; should read, "British diplomat said in a later dated over two decades ago..."; are Canadians truly going to take offense against something a diplomat said about them behind-the-scenes over two decades ago?]" And this same someone posted it in the "Canadian news" section, Urban. You can tell because it has a Maple Leaf at the top right-hand corner, too...
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
...in the entire story there is only ONE tiny paragraph plus one sentence/phrase about Canadians out of more than 20 paragraphs.

Hardly sounds like it has anything to do with Canadians primarily.


My point exactly, that is, re: the original ap story.

But someone seized upon that one tiny paragraph and then repackaged the story under the headline "Canadians 'deeply unimpressive,' British Diplomat's Letter Says [sic; should read, "British diplomat said in a later dated over two decades ago..."; are Canadians truly going to take offense against something a diplomat said about them behind-the-scenes over two decades ago?]" And this same someone posted it in the "Canadian news" section, Urban. You can tell because it has a Maple Leaf at the top right-hand corner, too...


But why is that surprising? Other newspapers from other countries engage in precisely the same sort of repackaging. Anyway it doesn't sound like the newspaper is trying to encourage Canadians to take offense, more like pointing out the childish behaviour that some diplomats engage in. And if you notice the countries for which the diplomats reserved the most venom for...those aren't exactly star postings for which the top people get picked for. More like third or fourth stringers (no surprise that some of these people don't understand "diplomatic")
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:39 am    Post subject: Re: British diplomats insult Canada Reply with quote

scotty12347 wrote:
On the other hand wrote:

This coming from the country that knighted Rod Stewart?!

He wasnt knighted...


Right. He was made a CBE, which is one step below Knighthood.
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The Great Wall of Whiner



Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so some snobby royally-appointed Brit from with the name "Moran" (Moron) insulted Canda several decades ago.

Southpark and Simpsons does it all the time, big whoopdie-doo.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: British diplomats insult Canada Reply with quote

Quote:
"Anyone who is even moderately good at what they do - in literature, the theatre, skiing or whatever - tends to become a national figure. And anyone who stands out at all from the crowd tends to be praised to the skies and given the Order of Canada at once," Moran wrote in his letter, according to files released to the BBC.


This is true.
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chris_J2



Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:21 am    Post subject: Declassified British Diplomatic documents Reply with quote

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/nicaraguans-dishonest-canadians-unimpressive-thais-lewd-20091019-h38x.html

It's not just Canada. either:

Quote:
Nigerians are maddening, Nicaraguans often dishonest, Canadians deeply unimpressive and Thais commonly lewd
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Arthur Dent



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the link to the Globe and Mail for this story.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/letters-reveal-candid-views-of-british-diplomats/article1328267/

The entire letter is available here, as are others if you follow the provided link at the Globe site.

The letter was entirely to do with his most recent posting in Canada as well as his thoughts on the effectiveness of his position in its incarnation at the time.

I thought it was candid and quite accurate. Not at all abusive. It had the tone of someone who felt quite privileged to have been witness to so much. Nothing to take offense over. Someone who had access to many levels of government as well as having traveled a good deal of the country. A great position to observe from, but perhaps frustrating in its impotency, which comes through as well.

Deciding what is good and what is bad about a culture or a country and its people is subjective, no matter how impartial you try to be. Given this, and that it was sent to British officials, as well as his awareness that it was likely to be more of a historical document than an influence on policy, I thought he chose his words quite well.

He seemed quite friendly towards Canada, and Canadians in general, deserved or not, if not towards its more well known politicians or public figures. But every nation suffers this.
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