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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Helping out your friends, that's pretty standard Korean tribal cliquishness, generous behavior yes but only applicable to your tribe. If you're in group, Koreans can be absolutely marvelous people. If you're out group, not as much.
I've found that socially they just have a limit as to who is deserving of civility and who is not. Koreans are well aware of polite deferential behavior but view it as a selective privilege they can parcel out to those deemed worthy.
That's their culture, any social nicety that can be replicated in a rural small town setting they excel at, but as a larger society no. Some would say it's just different, I say it's not as evolved. Plenty of Koreans feel the same way and have articulated as such to me.
There are factors at play such as history and geography, but in 2009 it's a race for the prestige and Korea can't keep throwing up its history as a shield. Korea China Japan and Taiwan all witnessed similar growth patterns since 1950--Korea can't keep using "we're a poor country" because that's just too bad, history doesn't wait for the newly wealthy to learn how to play the game.
This whole in group out group thing is great if you're all camped out in the 시골 raisin cows but doesn't make for a urbanized modern civil society. |
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Burndog
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
Helping out your friends, that's pretty standard Korean tribal cliquishness, generous behavior yes but only applicable to your tribe. If you're in group, Koreans can be absolutely marvelous people. If you're out group, not as much.
I've found that socially they just have a limit as to who is deserving of civility and who is not. Koreans are well aware of polite deferential behavior but view it as a selective privilege they can parcel out to those deemed worthy.
That's their culture, any social nicety that can be replicated in a rural small town setting they excel at, but as a larger society no. Some would say it's just different, I say it's not as evolved. Plenty of Koreans feel the same way and have articulated as such to me.
There are factors at play such as history and geography, but in 2009 it's a race for the prestige and Korea can't keep throwing up its history as a shield. Korea China Japan and Taiwan all witnessed similar growth patterns since 1950--Korea can't keep using "we're a poor country" because that's just too bad, history doesn't wait for the newly wealthy to learn how to play the game.
This whole in group out group thing is great if you're all camped out in the 시골 raisin cows but doesn't make for a urbanized modern civil society. |
Why stay somewhere that you hate so much? I'm not having a go, I'm just asking. I get by here because I just hink that most of the stuff I hate is just a different approach to mine...so I forgive and forget. If you really think that it's a question of evolution, then you must be angry all the time here. how do you stand it? (once again, not having a go, just curious about how you can cope). |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
[
But you know what does lower a person in my view, someone who goes onto public forums and shoots from the hip and bad mouths an entire culture, nation, and people, and then has the nerve to demand that nothing be thrown back at them. This is of course the internet, and it will persist.
Posters like TUM (possibly madoka, probably not komerican- tho the dude has his moments too) would probably be much more open to criticism of Korea if it wasn't posted in such a nasty tone or did not show such a shallowness of thinking. There have been plenty of well-thought out, well-intentioned posts about uncomfortable or negative posts about Korean culture and if you'll notice the usual suspects don't get all outraged over those. You can tell that the poster is upset over something yet is not trying to 'bash' Korea.
Because if your going to have the indecency to question people's commitment to charity, then please have the decency to withstand an examination of your own lifestyle. If there is anything truly shows gall it is ripping on people for not donating to charity when you in fact do not do so either. |
(bolding is mine)
I could add something more, but really you've said everything that needed to be said.
As for certain other people are you that bored you've got to resurrect a thread from 2004? |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Burndog wrote: |
Why stay somewhere that you hate so much? I'm not having a go, I'm just asking. I get by here because I just hink that most of the stuff I hate is just a different approach to mine...so I forgive and forget. If you really think that it's a question of evolution, then you must be angry all the time here. how do you stand it? (once again, not having a go, just curious about how you can cope). |
I live in Itaewon, work in Myeondong and have 12 weeks paid vacation, so that helps.
As I said, in small groups and social settings that existed before the transformation (primarily restaurants and hofs, hofs being a little newer) Korea's no better or worse than anywhere, probably better in fact b/c of the convenience quality and price of most eating/drinking establishments. Day to day it's no big deal, actually a very nice and convenient lifestyle. It's when I get to analyzing the society as a whole, even though I dont' have to interact with most of it.
Also, there's a huge divide b/w young and old Koreans, young ones being quite open minded and those are the people I hang around with day to day anyway.
As far as management, working here is like working for a 14 year old on steroids with ADD. The Old Ones run the institutions here, and the institutions and businesses still set the tone and will continue to do so for at least another 15 years, by which time most of us will be long one. Korea will be a great place to live for Koreans (it's already pretty nice for most expats) in about 10 years assuming they can start bringing in young workers to replace the old, but for now it still has a way to go. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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The OP is comparing Westerners to Koreans. Real Reality does this when the issue at hand reflects positively on the West. I'm fine with that and in actually as I've pointed out that's what all of these threads are about.
There's nothing wrong with bringing up the West when something is positive about the West, what I can't cotton is how some folks on this board go on a war path when you bring up some negative aspects of the West. We're both doing the same thing, that is, comparing the West to Korea.
As for the issue RR raises calling Korea cheap is absurd. Many of these �generous� countries are former colonial powers who took a lot from their former colonies. What they are giving back is actually very small in comparison to the wealth they took.
So there are historical and geopolitical reasons that explain the greater aid given by some of these countries. All those countries are not being generous. The West should actually give back much more, when you consider how much they�ve taken.
Take little Belgium or the Netherlands for example. People think wow the Netherlands and Belgium why are they so generous? Of course, these countries while small today had huge colonial empires in the past.
MASS CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY AND GENOCIDES:
THE CONGO FREE STATE GENOCIDE:
CIRCA 1895 TO 1912
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King L�opold II (1835 - 1909) occupied the Belgium throne from 1865 until his death in 1909. Outside of Belgium, however, he is chiefly remembered as the personal owner of the Congo Free State. This was a private project undertaken by the King to extract rubber and ivory from his personal colony, relying on slavery. He was ultimately responsible for the death of possibly tens of millions of Africans...
1. British diplomat Roger Casement's famous 1904 report estimated the death toll at 3 million for just twelve of the twenty years history of L�opold's regime.
2. Investigative reporter and author Peter Forbath estimated at least 5 million deaths.
3. Adam Hochschild, estimated 10 million.
4. The Encyclop�dia Britannica gives a total population decline of 8 million to 30 million.
In 1902 Joseph Conrad's novel Heart of Darkness was released: based on his brief experience as a steamer captain on the Congo ten years before...
"...his early dreams faded away to be replaced by unscrupulous cupidity, and step by step he was led downwards until he, the man of holy aspirations in 1885, stands now in 1909 with such a cloud of terrible direct personal responsibility resting upon him as no man in modern European history has had to bear." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, commenting on King L�opold II's crimes against humanity... |
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocong.htm |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Yes the West behaved pretty horribly towards their colonies a hundred years ago, however Belgian Congo was unique is that it was that personal property of the the King od Belgium, making it uniquely horrible. Also your pointlessly salacious excerpt mentions nothing about money.
But why stop there? WHAT ABOUT THE MONGOLS? They were responsible for the deaths of over 70 million Chinese in the 13th Century. Why hasn't China exacted any reparations? What about Romans suing Visigoths? Is it too late? Hell what about Persians suing Macedonians? Let's keep things in perspective here!!!! |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I'm just pointing out Old Gil that today's Western countries still have geopolitical interests in Africa and Asia which explains the continued aid over the years. Korea up to recently did not have these geopolitical interests and was actually poor. Things are changing now and Korea has greater geopolitical interests in SE Asia and Africa and so Korea has been donating more.
It would be comically na�ve to think that Westerners go around the world donating cash for the fun of it. They have specific strategic goals and much of that aid money actually never leave the donor states. They�re used as credits that that are used to purchase products from the giving country. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:40 am Post subject: |
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^
Seeing as how the US contributes the most foreign aid and has had the least amount of colonies of any Western power (zero--but a case could be made for the Phillipines) that's not true. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
^
Seeing as how the US contributes the most foreign aid and has had the least amount of colonies of any Western power (zero--but a case could be made for the Phillipines) that's not true. |
Well I think the answer to that would certainly depend on how one views Germany and Japan. Are they 'colonies' in the traditional sense, clearly not. But a case could be made for viewing them as some sort of subordinate to the U.S.
Incidentally, why is it that German success is almost universally attributed to the 'German drive for efficiency and aptitude for Engineering' while Korean success is "all thanks to the U.S."? Clearly both countries success is due to a combination of both factors in similar degrees. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Incidentally, why is it that German success is almost universally attributed to the 'German drive for efficiency and aptitude for Engineering' while Korean success is "all thanks to the U.S."? Clearly both countries success is due to a combination of both factors in similar degrees. |
Who says this? Either way it's a question of degree of these combination. The fact is that Korea owes much more of its wealth to the US than Germany does. Although saying that the US is the only reason for Korea's wealth, but not a reason for Germany's, would be wrong.
The fact is that before WWII Germany has had a long history of prosperity and cultural influence in its region and Korea has almost zero.
Germany was generally viewed as the most powerful country in Europe since the Franco-Prussian in the 1870s. The potential of the German states was feared for hundreds of years by Rome, the French and Hapsburgs, who all worked to keep the area fractured and squabbling.
Korea was pretty much for the entirety of the Joseon Dynasty a Korean-speaking province of the Ming and then Qing Dynasties, and a poor one at that. It had never in its history (at least since Joseon's founding) been considered a threat to either the Japanese or Chinese. |
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shamham
Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Old Gil wrote: |
^
Seeing as how the US contributes the most foreign aid and has had the least amount of colonies of any Western power (zero--but a case could be made for the Phillipines) that's not true. |
Well I think the answer to that would certainly depend on how one views Germany and Japan. Are they 'colonies' in the traditional sense, clearly not. But a case could be made for viewing them as some sort of subordinate to the U.S.
Incidentally, why is it that German success is almost universally attributed to the 'German drive for efficiency and aptitude for Engineering' while Korean success is "all thanks to the U.S."? Clearly both countries success is due to a combination of both factors in similar degrees. |
Regarding the comment on Germany and Japan that a 'case could be made' , my reply would be: but not a very good one.
That aside, the problem with this entire thread is the original OP. While I think it's a valid political debate to question Korea's contributions as one of the World's top 15 economies, this was a terrible way to do it. I clearly don't fall on the side of the apologists on most days, but even the thread title is confrontational and attempts to directly besmirch the character of the Korean people as a generality rather than debate the issue.
It's all downhill after that. Instead of a real discussion on the subject, we get to degenerate into silliness about colonialism and sins of the forefathers (in both directions) which are really not appropo of the subject itself. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Incidentally, why is it that German success is almost universally attributed to the 'German drive for efficiency and aptitude for Engineering' while Korean success is "all thanks to the U.S."? Clearly both countries success is due to a combination of both factors in similar degrees. |
Who says this? Either way it's a question of degree of these combination. The fact is that Korea owes much more of its wealth to the US than Germany does. Although saying that the US is the only reason for Korea's wealth, but not a reason for Germany's, would be wrong.
The fact is that before WWII Germany has had a long history of prosperity and cultural influence in its region and Korea has almost zero.
Germany was generally viewed as the most powerful country in Europe since the Franco-Prussian in the 1870s. The potential of the German states was feared for hundreds of years by Rome, the French and Hapsburgs, who all worked to keep the area fractured and squabbling.
Korea was pretty much for the entirety of the Joseon Dynasty a Korean-speaking province of the Ming and then Qing Dynasties, and a poor one at that. It had never in its history (at least since Joseon's founding) been considered a threat to either the Japanese or Chinese. |
Certainly Germany had much more of a tradition of being 'a power' while Korea historically had been little more than a vassal state. Both countries were divided and devastated by war. Both received MASSIVE aid from the U.S.
Let's face it, were it not for the U.S., Germany would have been part of the Warsaw Pact and would not be the powerhouse it is now. Were it not for U.S. intervention in the Korean War and WWII, Korea would be a vassal of either Japan, China, or the Soviets.
Both had their national defense effectively outsourced in order to allow their domestic economies to develop. Germany was clearly the greater strategic priority and received more aid and attention than Korea. Given the fact that Korea started recovery 8 years later, had less of a pre-existing infrastructure, and received less aid, and was a smaller country I think it's fair to say that both countries developed at a similar rate and that both of their developments were assisted in similar, significant amounts by the U.S.
I object to Koreans who claim they did it all on their own. I object to those who believe that Korea's prosperity was solely the result of U.S. aid and not due to the people and domestic programs of Korea. |
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Burndog
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
| Burndog wrote: |
Why stay somewhere that you hate so much? I'm not having a go, I'm just asking. I get by here because I just hink that most of the stuff I hate is just a different approach to mine...so I forgive and forget. If you really think that it's a question of evolution, then you must be angry all the time here. how do you stand it? (once again, not having a go, just curious about how you can cope). |
I live in Itaewon, work in Myeondong and have 12 weeks paid vacation, so that helps.
As I said, in small groups and social settings that existed before the transformation (primarily restaurants and hofs, hofs being a little newer) Korea's no better or worse than anywhere, probably better in fact b/c of the convenience quality and price of most eating/drinking establishments. Day to day it's no big deal, actually a very nice and convenient lifestyle. It's when I get to analyzing the society as a whole, even though I dont' have to interact with most of it.
Also, there's a huge divide b/w young and old Koreans, young ones being quite open minded and those are the people I hang around with day to day anyway.
As far as management, working here is like working for a 14 year old on steroids with ADD. The Old Ones run the institutions here, and the institutions and businesses still set the tone and will continue to do so for at least another 15 years, by which time most of us will be long one. Korea will be a great place to live for Koreans (it's already pretty nice for most expats) in about 10 years assuming they can start bringing in young workers to replace the old, but for now it still has a way to go. |
Cheers for the decent reply. It's a good insight. Thanks. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| As for the issue RR raises calling Korea cheap is absurd. Many of these �generous� countries are former colonial powers who took a lot from their former colonies. What they are giving back is actually very small in comparison to the wealth they took. |
So what, we're comparing Korea in 2009 (2004?) to Belgium circa 1912?? And everyone on this board is supposed to identify with Belgium-- because they're white. |
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shamham
Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I object to Koreans who claim they did it all on their own. I object to those who believe that Korea's prosperity was solely the result of U.S. aid and not due to the people and domestic programs of Korea. |
I agree 100% with this sentiment. |
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