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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Confucianism or 공자, (Confucius) has nothing to do with room salons and it is not illegal for a woman to go to a room salon.
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I once had a conversation with a guy who was a high-up prosecutor, in which he openly told me about his patronage of room salons. I then asked him if he was aware of similar businesses catering to women, and he replied, without a trace of irony "Oh, if I find out about them, I shut them down".
Now, I don't think it was a case of male-catering brothels being legal, and female-catering brothels being illegal. As far as I know, they're both technically illegal in Korea. But the fact that this prosecutor felt completely comfortable with stating that he employs a gender-based double standard in prosecuting crimes surely must say something about the way the law treats women in practice.
And yeah, I could tell you some stories about sexist police behavior in Canada. But I think there the cops would at least feel obligated to put on a public face of egalitarianism. Whereas with the guy I was talking to, he saw no contradiction whatsoever in admitting to a casual acquiantance that he prosecutes women for doing the exact same things that he does. I'd imagine that such blatantly discriminatory attitudes weren't all that uncommon in Canada as recently as a few decades back, though.
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They still have princess, Marquess/Marchioness, Earl/Countess, Viscount/Viscountess, Baron/Baroness, etc., and dukes there, don't they?
The order of precedence in British royalty and aristocracy is as follows, from highest to lowest:
* King/Queen
* Prince/Princess
* Duke/Duchess
* Marquess/Marchioness
* Earl/Countess
* Viscount/Viscountess
* Baron/Baroness
* Baronet
* Knight/Dame
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I've never been to the UK, but my impression would be that, if a Baron, for example, tried to throw his title around in a pub in order to convince his commoner drinking buddies that they had to take his advice on which bar to hit next, he'd get laughed out of the conversation pretty quickly. Whereas I think it's generally known that things like the age-hierarchy play a more significant role in everyday social relations in Korea.
Granted, the members of the Royal Family itself still have a lot of social weight they can toss around. Though whether they enjoy this prestige as royalty per se, or simply as celebrities, is an open question.
And one question, KoAmerican...
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| The truth is of course Korea had its own period of enlightenment, first with Buddhism and then the adoption of the world's first Confucian based government, basically installing the philosopher king that Plato talked of. |
You talk as if the Buddhist and Confucian periods were all one seamless garment of enlightenment. But my impression, admittedly as someone who doesn't know a lot about Korean history, has been that the adoption of Confucianism was in some ways a reaction against Buddhism, which had grown corrupt and ineffectual. Perhaps the realtionship is more comparable to that of the Rennaissance and the Reformation in the west(ie. the Reformation was partly a reaction against the excesses of the Rennaissance, though both made useful contrinutions in their own right)?
I'm just kind of speculating here. I don't doubt that, in its day, Confucianism may very well have been a positive force for social change. |
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shamham
Joined: 29 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
I agree. The West is a product of historical happenstance which make it different and not superior to Korea.
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Absolutism in statements is generally flawed.
Some things in the West are demonstrably superior to Korea - such as issues regarding race relations and women's rights. Some things in Korea are demonstrably superior to the West - such as the value accorded the aged even when they've stopped being 'productive', or the general level of safety on the big city streets.
The difference between defense and debate is the ability to think critically with the above, and to examine the reasons behind each. For example, Confucianism is arguably the reason for the value of the aged in Korea - in that instance, a good thing. However, it's also a very obvious target for the difficulties in terms of the position of women.
Some things are simply different. Some things - on both sides - are superior. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
Confucianism or 공자, (Confucius) has nothing to do with room salons and it is not illegal for a woman to go to a room salon.
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I once had a conversation with a guy who was a high-up prosecutor, in which he openly told me about his patronage of room salons. I then asked him if he was aware of similar businesses catering to women, and he replied, without a trace of irony "Oh, if I find out about them, I shut them down".
Now, I don't think it was a case of male-catering brothels being legal, and female-catering brothels being illegal. As far as I know, they're both technically illegal in Korea. But the fact that this prosecutor felt completely comfortable with stating that he employs a gender-based double standard in prosecuting crimes surely must say something about the way the law treats women in practice.
And yeah, I could tell you some stories about sexist police behavior in Canada. But I think there the cops would at least feel obligated to put on a public face of egalitarianism. Whereas with the guy I was talking to, he saw no contradiction whatsoever in admitting to a casual acquiantance that he prosecutes women for doing the exact same things that he does. I'd imagine that such blatantly discriminatory attitudes weren't all that uncommon in Canada as recently as a few decades back, though. |
If you look through the yellow telephone pages of any city in America you will find many pages of advertisements for call girls/escorts. These are the Western equivalent of Korean room salons. The fact that there are more call girl advertisements and room salons for men is more a reflection of demand/supply, unless you want to say that somehow women in Canada and the US are being oppressed by society and have a pent up demand for call boys. Obviously social shibboleths with gender roles exist everywhere. What I�m saying is that it�s not Confucianism in modern liberal democratic Korean society that decides these things. Economics plays a far greater role in determining gender roles in Korea and elsewhere.
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They still have princess, Marquess/Marchioness, Earl/Countess, Viscount/Viscountess, Baron/Baroness, etc., and dukes there, don't they?
The order of precedence in British royalty and aristocracy is as follows, from highest to lowest:
* King/Queen
* Prince/Princess
* Duke/Duchess
* Marquess/Marchioness
* Earl/Countess
* Viscount/Viscountess
* Baron/Baroness
* Baronet
* Knight/Dame
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I've never been to the UK, but my impression would be that, if a Baron, for example, tried to throw his title around in a pub in order to convince his commoner drinking buddies that they had to take his advice on which bar to hit next, he'd get laughed out of the conversation pretty quickly. Whereas I think it's generally known that things like the age-hierarchy play a more significant role in everyday social relations in Korea.
Granted, the members of the Royal Family itself still have a lot of social weight they can toss around. Though whether they enjoy this prestige as royalty per se, or simply as celebrities, is an open question. |
I'm just pointing out that there are traditional hierarchies in every society. Some English speaking countries have less merely because they are newer societies, America, Canada, Australia, etc. England being an old European country has more. Although Britain is a meritocracy just as Korea is it would be wrong to think that these traditional hierarchies in British culture don't exist and don't influence behavior.
So would some titled people throw their title around when deciding which bar to go to next? Some might, but he/she would definitely have more say in the matter.
Btw, what social position and how much social capital would a somewhat poor Canadian or American English teacher have in Great Britain?
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And one question, KoAmerican...
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| The truth is of course Korea had its own period of enlightenment, first with Buddhism and then the adoption of the world's first Confucian based government, basically installing the philosopher king that Plato talked of. |
You talk as if the Buddhist and Confucian periods were all one seamless garment of enlightenment. But my impression, admittedly as someone who doesn't know a lot about Korean history, has been that the adoption of Confucianism was in some ways a reaction against Buddhism, which had grown corrupt and ineffectual. Perhaps the realtionship is more comparable to that of the Rennaissance and the Reformation in the west(ie. the Reformation was partly a reaction against the excesses of the Rennaissance, though both made useful contrinutions in their own right)?
I'm just kind of speculating here. I don't doubt that, in its day, Confucianism may very well have been a positive force for social change. |
Yes, I agree it was a reaction to Buddhist monks meddling in politics and economics. Buddhism had become corrupt and Confucianism was seen as a way to reform Korean society. The problems that hurt Korea in the end was not so much Confucianism, although of course it too had to modernize, but weak rule by the royal family itself in the last century of their rule. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
Calicoe, I agree with you that report rates need to go up in Korea. I think you can agree that they need to go up everywhere given what the Kinsey report says about rates in the West.
However, you seem to be overly focused on these rates. They are important but let's keep in mind that overall per capita rape rates can still be larger even though an advanced country may have higher report rates. In other words higher report rates do not necessarily translate into less sexual assaults and rapes. For example:
In the Conceptualizations of Rape and Rapists section the Kinsey report says:
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| Recent research has supported and extended knowledge about sexually aggressive men. Analyzing a sample of U.S. college men, Abbey et al. (2001) found that 33% reported engaging in some form of sexual assault. |
The "marital exclusion" issue is a well known one and continues to be a problem.
http://www.truthout.org/070309E
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"Remnants of the "marital rape exemption" still exist in many states' laws, even though all 50 states now criminalize spousal rape. Plea bargains can also lead to more lenient sentencing...
Studies indicate that between 15 and 25 percent of all married women have been victims of spousal rape and some scholars suggest that this type of rape is the most common form in our society...The so-called "marital rape exemption" has been embedded in the sexual assault laws of our country since its founding. " |
Comparing the two countries in the Kinsey report it's obvious that the issue of rape will need much more than higher report rates, there needs to be more fundamental changes in culture in the West and Korea.
(you can find the quotes on "marital exclusion" in Section 8, Definitions (about 6 paragraphs down), and the pusnishment quote can be found several sections down under "Punishment of rapists")
| calicoe wrote: |
Excuse me, can you please provide links and page/section numbers to the above mentioned American Kinsey Report, and a source for your comments on marital exclusion, i.e.:
8. Significant and Unconventional Behaviors
A. Coercive Sex
"It is very difficult to ascertain the actual frequency of sexual violence in Korea. According to the Korean Institute of Criminology (1998), the report rate for sexual assaults was estimated to be only 6.1% of actual incidents, whereas the rate in the advanced countries is around 30 to 40%. In 1998, the sexual violence counseling centers under the Ministry of Health and Welfare reported around 25,000 cases of sexual violence, which was twice the incidence in 1997. Of these cases, 33.5% involved rape; 21.9% involved physical sexual harassment, and the rest were about verbal sexual abuse. However, only 3.6% of the victims reported the incident to the police (Korean Institute for Health and Social Welfare 1999).
The Korean Sexual Violence Relief Center (1999) reported that 95% of the victims are women (assaulters are mostly men) and 73% of the assaulters are acquaintances of their victims, who range in age from the teens to the 70s. Thirty percent of the victims are children under the age of 13, with 50% under the age of 19. Chang (2000) noted that sexual assaulters experienced no guilt for their behavior, believing that sexual violence may occur accidentally as an expression of a natural uncontrollable sexual urge of men. This conception leads men to look at rape as a kind of sexual act, rather than a crime infringing on a woman�s body and personality. An interesting legal aspect in sexual violence is that current law does not allow a victim to file a suit against her father, leaving some incest victims with no means to their rights."
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/ccies/kr.php
Thank you. |
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I just wrote a whole response to you, and frickin' lost it on slow internet. I was much nicer in my response, but simply don't have the time to keep repeating the same thing. It just keeps going around in circles with you.
I'm done.
*edit added: I keep getting this frickin' "PhP BB critical error. Cannot connect to the database" message. I wrote an entire page of response to you and lost it - aaaaarrrrrgggghhhh! So, I don't mean to be dismissive, but I;m just burnt out.
Maybe I'll be able to respond again tomorrow. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| If you look through the yellow telephone pages of any city in America you will find many pages of advertisements for call girls/escorts. These are the Western equivalent of Korean room salons. The fact that there are more call girl advertisements and room salons for men is more a reflection of demand/supply, unless you want to say that somehow women in Canada and the US are being oppressed by society and have a pent up demand for call boys. |
Yes, buy my anecdote about the prosecutor would seem to demonstrate that, at least in Korea, it's not simply supply and demand which determines the double standard. The guy openly stated to me that he shuts down female-serving brothels. That's not market forces at work, that's the state actively choosing to suppress one type of sex business but leave another standing, on the basis of gender.
And I don't mean to suggest that all prosecutors would make the same sort of judgements that my friend did. These sorts of laws are usually not enforced consistently across the board, in any nation. The main point of the story was that, in talking to someone he didn't know all that well, the guy didn't even feel obligated to pay lip service to the notion of gender equality.
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Btw, what social position and how much social capital would a somewhat poor Canadian or American English teacher have in Great Britain?
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Probably not much, but I don't think it would be a case of people consciously saying to themselves "Well, I shouldn't listen to that guy, he's dirt poor". It would be more a case of the guy himself, due to lack of funds, being unable to put himself in a social position where people are going to take him seriously.
If I walk into a bar and say "Okay, I'm buying drinks for everyone tonight!!", a lot of people are probably gonna be willing to hang out with me for a while longer than they would otherwise. Not because they perceive me as having a high social-status, but simply because, at that time and place, I'm the guy buying drinks. They probably wouldn't care if I'm otherwise the dishwasher at a greasy spoon.
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So would some titled people throw their title around when deciding which bar to go to next? Some might, but he/she would definitely have more say in the matter.
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Like I say, I've never been to the UK. Maybe they are really as hidebound in their class system so as to give a guy more say in planning a bar-hop simply because he's the Fourth Duke Of Whatever. My guess would be, though, that any extra social traction he would have would be a result of having more disposable cash on hand, not the title per se. |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
So would some titled people throw their title around when deciding which bar to go to next? Some might, but he/she would definitely have more say in the matter.
Like I say, I've never been to the UK. Maybe they are really as hidebound in their class system so as to give a guy more say in planning a bar-hop simply because he's the Fourth Duke Of Whatever. My guess would be, though, that any extra social traction he would have would be a result of having more disposable cash on hand, not the title per se. |
The way people who have never visited my country view it is frikkin' hilllarious. thinking Lords and Ladies walking around with suits and bowler hats are running things lol...
Hillarious. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| And, are you a lord or a commoner ... a porridge thief? |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| If you look through the yellow telephone pages of any city in America you will find many pages of advertisements for call girls/escorts. These are the Western equivalent of Korean room salons. The fact that there are more call girl advertisements and room salons for men is more a reflection of demand/supply, unless you want to say that somehow women in Canada and the US are being oppressed by society and have a pent up demand for call boys. |
Yes, buy my anecdote about the prosecutor would seem to demonstrate that, at least in Korea, it's not simply supply and demand which determines the double standard. The guy openly stated to me that he shuts down female-serving brothels. That's not market forces at work, that's the state actively choosing to suppress one type of sex business but leave another standing, on the basis of gender.
And I don't mean to suggest that all prosecutors would make the same sort of judgements that my friend did. These sorts of laws are usually not enforced consistently across the board, in any nation. The main point of the story was that, in talking to someone he didn't know all that well, the guy didn't even feel obligated to pay lip service to the notion of gender equality. |
I agree that Confucianism does play some role in society in the same way that feudalism still influences some Western countries. For example, Britain's peerage system and landed gentry. All I'm saying though is that prostitution, escort girls, or room salons are not caused by Confucianism or sexist prosecutors per se but by other factors that are more universal in origin. Prostitution being said to be the oldest profession.
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So would some titled people throw their title around when deciding which bar to go to next? Some might, but he/she would definitely have more say in the matter.
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Like I say, I've never been to the UK. Maybe they are really as hidebound in their class system so as to give a guy more say in planning a bar-hop simply because he's the Fourth Duke Of Whatever. My guess would be, though, that any extra social traction he would have would be a result of having more disposable cash on hand, not the title per se. |
It's very difficult to get into the British upper classes which make up about 1% of the population. You either have to become very wealthy and let's face it how many people can do that or marry into it. At sort of the outer fringe of the upper class you also have a peerage system and wealthy families who make up the hereditary landed gentry which still exists today. Basically a small percentage of the population, the elite, which has ruled Great Britain for centuries and which is de facto closed off to the commoners.
You can say that Korea has these age-hierarchies but they are really not as important as the economic class divisions that are created in a capitalistic economy.
As I said, the Yi dynasty is long gone in Korea and while Confucianism is still a part of the culture the main motivating forces that determine human relations and behavior in Korea are democracy and capitalism. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
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Quote:
So would some titled people throw their title around when deciding which bar to go to next? Some might, but he/she would definitely have more say in the matter.
Like I say, I've never been to the UK. Maybe they are really as hidebound in their class system so as to give a guy more say in planning a bar-hop simply because he's the Fourth Duke Of Whatever. My guess would be, though, that any extra social traction he would have would be a result of having more disposable cash on hand, not the title per se. |
The way people who have never visited my country view it is frikkin' hilllarious. thinking Lords and Ladies walking around with suits and bowler hats are running things lol...
Hillarious. |
No, Americans also know about the street urchins/beggar pickpockets of London's mean streets because reruns of Oliver Twist have been drilled into American children for decades... |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Uh, I read the book. Don't make assumptions. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| calicoe wrote: |
| Uh, I read the book. Don't make assumptions. |
Okay calicoe  |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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It's very difficult to get into the British upper classes which make up about 1% of the population. You either have to become very wealthy and let's face it how many people can do that or marry into it. At sort of the outer fringe of the upper class you also have a peerage system and wealthy families who make up the hereditary landed gentry which still exists today. Basically a small percentage of the population, the elite, which has ruled Great Britain for centuries and which is de facto closed off to the commoners.
You can say that Korea has these age-hierarchies but they are really not as important as the economic class divisions that are created in a capitalistic economy. |
For crying out loud no-one calls the rich the upper classes anymore. Land isn't handed out to barons and stuff liek that any more you damned bloody idiot. Yes the dinosaurs still exist but they are remanants and will soon merely be fossil record. Of course they pass the wealth down through their famillies through iinheritance etc but it is subject to heavy taxes and whilst they may be wealthy they do not enjoy the kind of influence you Komeritroll are suggesting lol....
The landed gentry do not rule the country you utter foolish troll.
Yes rich people have power in every country in the world. It's the same in the UK but your notion of the upper classes and lower classes etc is an anachronism. People get knighthoods etc today for contributing to society, not because of their bloodline lol...
Hillarious, simply hiilarious.
Anyway back on topic - sex in Korea, Kinsey..... |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Please sir, can I have some more? |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| calicoe wrote: |
| Please sir, can I have some more? |
That's what she said. |
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