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Zulethe
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
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 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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As much as I can't stand that duffus Goldburg, he did say it the best.
The traditional thinking is that you really have to "beat" the champion to take the championship. In other words, a tie, or a really close fight should go to the champion.
So while I agree that Rua won the fight by the slimmest of margins, I don't think Rua did enough to dethrone Machida. Hence, I agree with the decision. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Zulethe wrote: |
As much as I can't stand that duffus Goldburg, he did say it the best.
The traditional thinking is that you really have to "beat" the champion to take the championship. In other words, a tie, or a really close fight should go to the champion.
So while I agree that Rua won the fight by the slimmest of margins, I don't think Rua did enough to dethrone Machida. Hence, I agree with the decision. |
I agree with this line of reasoning. Anyway, like I said previously, I think Machida outpointed him. To be more specific, he won the first three rounds, round 4 was a draw, and round 5 to Rua.
However, I heard there is a consensus among "experts" who watched and re- watched the film of the fight in regular and slo-mo and they favor Rua.
On a side note, I think Dana White was irresponsible to question the judges decision in public the way he did, regardless of how he felt personally. He is usually more savvy than that. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I thought it was shogun. He was just too fast for machida to take in his regular game. Did you see machida's legs- they were a mess. I was really taken aback. |
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roknroll
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| I thought it was shogun. He was just too fast for machida to take in his regular game. Did you see machida's legs- they were a mess. I was really taken aback. |
Yeah, and Rua would've gotten the decision if he were the champ. Kinda makes one wonder why he didn't go harder towards the end. Of course he was wary of Machida's style etc. but why didn't he take it to him more when he had seen the damage inflicted? Easier said than done of course. He won't make the same mistake next time though. Imho, Machida was still delivering albeit not the way we're used to seeing him, especially in the last 2 rounds. Unlike many other matchups, it ultimately doesn't really matter who got the decison. If it were convincing enough, Rua would be the new champ and Machida would be deserving of a rematch. As it is, Rua is deserving of a rematch without having to wait and fight others to 'redeem' himself. From Machida's standpoint, he clearly needs to figure Rua's style out or he will not remain the champ. If things figured differently and he lost, he'd still need to solve Rua's style to get his belt back.
Then there's the 'knowing' that u've accomplished something. Regardless of Machida's words at the end, he knows all too well that Rua figured him out. So, if both sides (those who think Machida deserves to remain champ vs those who think Rua should've gotten the decision) keep their opinions in abeyance until the next match, we'll see who is the most deserving.....cus like I mentioned, either way there needs to be a re-match to 'clear the air' irrespective of which fighter was given the victory. [This is my way of saying, don't worry about the judges' respective decisions, either way it comes down to a rematch].
With respect to the leg damage, in the asian fighting styles if you hammer a fighter in the face 3 times and he kicks your leg a good one, you're going to lose if you don't knock him out or deliver decent leg kicks back for each one he delivers on you, no matter if you're hammering his face and body with your fists and he's just tapping you with his hands. But this isn't the asian system....though the leg kicks do count.
Also, wrt Sector7G mentioning about Dana W.'s questioning the judges' decision......couldn't agree more. Although I didn't watch the aftermath, if this is the case it's quite uncalled for. Makes one wonder if he's actually trying to put pressure on judges or trying to sell the next bout. If it's the former, then hey it's got all the shortcomings of boxing and if it's the latter, then hey it's got all the shortcomings of boxing....  |
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rumdiary
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Look at the stats. Rua landed almost twice as many strikes as Machida.
http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html
Dana White wants a rematch asap. It rumored to go down at UFC 108. Thats going to be a sick card if it does. I'm not holding my breath since Machida has a 60 day no-contact medical suspension.
Main Card
Brock Lesnar vs Shane Carwin (UFC Heavyweight Title)
Anderson Silva vs Vitor Belfort (UFC Middleweight Title)
Rashad Evans vs Thiago Silva
Junior Dos Santos vs Gabriel Gonzaga
Carlos Condit vs Paul Daley
Prelim Fights
Jim Miller vs Tyson Griffin
Sam Stout vs Joe Lauzon
Martin Kampmann vs Rory Markham
Jake Ellenberger vs Mike Pyle |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Zulethe wrote: |
As much as I can't stand that duffus Goldburg, he did say it the best.
The traditional thinking is that you really have to "beat" the champion to take the championship. In other words, a tie, or a really close fight should go to the champion.
So while I agree that Rua won the fight by the slimmest of margins, I don't think Rua did enough to dethrone Machida. Hence, I agree with the decision. |
There should be no special "he's the champ" rules. If Shogun beat him, he beat him. It was pretty clear by the end of the fight who had won |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| shifter2009 wrote: |
There should be no special "he's the champ" rules. If Shogun beat him, he beat him. It was pretty clear by the end of the fight who had won |
But that's the thing, it was not so clear. All 3 ring side judges thought Machida out pointed Rua. I concede they could be wrong, but unless they were out and out corrupt, which no one is saying, it was at least a damn close fight.
I will also concede that post fight dissection of the footage and blow by blow breakdown does appear to favor Rua. But hindsight via slo-mo is easy, just like instant replay in football. |
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Hova
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| shifter2009 wrote: |
| Zulethe wrote: |
As much as I can't stand that duffus Goldburg, he did say it the best.
The traditional thinking is that you really have to "beat" the champion to take the championship. In other words, a tie, or a really close fight should go to the champion.
So while I agree that Rua won the fight by the slimmest of margins, I don't think Rua did enough to dethrone Machida. Hence, I agree with the decision. |
There should be no special "he's the champ" rules. If Shogun beat him, he beat him. It was pretty clear by the end of the fight who had won |
Shogun clearly won and I don't see how anyone can argue that. Even Machida was surprised when they announced his name. The judges decision was extremely controversial, which is why Dana white has agreed to put on a rematch. However with that all said, you should never leave it to the judges decision. Dana White even said this in a interview today. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Hova wrote: |
| Shogun clearly won and I don't see how anyone can argue that. |
It was an extremely close fight and I don't see how anyone can argue that. |
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Hova
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| Hova wrote: |
| Shogun clearly won and I don't see how anyone can argue that. |
It was an extremely close fight and I don't see how anyone can argue that. |
I'm not saying it wasn't a close fight but Shogun did clearly win. Shogun landed more strikes, caused more damaged, controlled the pace of the fight, and had octagon control majority of the entire fight. I think that should speak for itself. This is also coming from someone who wanted Machida to win.
Here is a article some of you guys might find worth reading...
http://www.cagereport.net/Cecil-Peoples-I-believe-Lyoto-won-the-fight-clearly.html |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Hova wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Hova wrote: |
| Shogun clearly won and I don't see how anyone can argue that. |
It was an extremely close fight and I don't see how anyone can argue that. |
I'm not saying it wasn't a close fight but Shogun did clearly win. Shogun landed more strikes, caused more damaged, controlled the pace of the fight, and had octagon control majority of the entire fight. I think that should speak for itself. This is also coming from someone who wanted Machida to win.
Here is a article some of you guys might find worth reading...
http://www.cagereport.net/Cecil-Peoples-I-believe-Lyoto-won-the-fight-clearly.html |
I am not buying the more damaging strike argument, Machida got some good licks in here or there but those counter jabs weren't hurting Shogun. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I do find it interesting and it pretty much sums up why I thought Machida eked out the win after viewing the fight live(on tv). I have not had the chance to see replays but am taking the word of the "experts" who watched and re-watched the footage and who came to the consensus that Rua fared better.
You say close but Rua clearly won. I say close and Machida eked out a win, though I would have been ok with a draw, and maybe just shrugged my shoulders if they had given it to Rua. I had no money on the fight, and like both fighters immensely. I knew of Shogun from his Pride days, and at one time considered him invincible and remember when he beat Rampage by TKO in the first round. He looked like he was regaining the form he had before his injuries-it was good to see.
He was the aggressor, and Machida was the counter-puncher. Personally, I think that is why people say he won. I don't know, maybe I did not give him enough points for the leg kicks he was landing.
Believe it or not, I will bet on Machida in a rematch. Just a gut feeling. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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And now for Machida's comments:
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/machida-i-was-superior-20576
On who won:
�I thought it was a very even and tough fight,� Machida said. �I had the opportunity to see the fight again and I thought I won four rounds and Shogun took the last one. Some people say he won the fourth and fifth round, but for sure I won at least the first three rounds. The American commentators were pretty much biased. If you see the fight without audio, you will probably see a different fight.
One interesting comment on why he looked depressed after the fight:
�My leg started to hurt in the fifth round, and I was very upset that I couldn�t knock him out as I had planned,� Machida said. �I had two chances where I felt him really (dazed), but I lost it and I get really upset when I leave the decision in the judges� hands.�
After confirming that he totally agrees with a rematch, Machida also addressed UFC President Dana White�s statement that he thought Shogun was the winner.
�Anyone who has a mouth can talk. I respect his opinion and I�m ready to fight Shogun or any other challenger UFC decides, but I would like to say that this fight was not judged by myself, my father or Anderson Silva,� Machida said. �This fight was judged by professionals, so I�m pretty much comfortable with the result.� |
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Hova
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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I already can't wait for the rematch. I think both fighters are really gonna go all out this time. Maybe Shogun will take it to the ground?
Anyone watch the Sakuraba fight on Dream? He totally took a beating but ended up winning with a knee bar! |
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roknroll
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Let's look at one from the past: Hamill vs Bisping from FightMetric:
"This fight is a prime example of the limits of the ten-point must system. Hamill wins the first round by more than 150 points, loses the next two by narrow margins and loses the fight 28-29. By any measure of effectiveness, Hamill is the clear winner of this fight. ���Still, the FightMetric System would seem to validate the two judges that gave the fight to Bisping. ���Despite the hyperbole, this was certainly not the worst decision in UFC history, and if FightMetric has proven anything, it�s that the decision using the ten-point must system was the correct one."
FightMetric Winner: Matt Hamill (Hamill 335 Bisping 229).
Of course, any judging system will not be perfect even if the humans involved are truly giving their honest, impartial accounts of the fight. Rogan has mentioned the need to overhaul, so to speak, the current scoring. Whatever the scoring rules are, these will be the constraints of the fight. I haven't followed the FM system, but clearly it has its flaws. For starters, it's made up of a few statisticians and a blog writer who apparently doesn't carefully edit his work. Theoretically, it can be useful in post-match analysis of fights but lacks in a few areas. One being real-time constraints. The depth of analysis and weighing of the various categories of scoring and 'effectiveness' are obviously limited by time. The judges have to keep watching the ongoing fight while scoring it and only have a minute between rounds. Another constraint is the 'historical average fighter' used in their statistical formula. Basically, their using value judgements (yep, just like real-life judges, but their statisticians with an interest in MMA and of course MONEY). We've seen how Olympic boxing scoring has changed, simplified and more objective in the sense that there 'shouldn't' be the major problems of bias, revenge, etc. as in the past (think Roy Jones Jr. here). A relatively objective scoring system is also employed in Taekwondo. Don't ya just love the effects this has had on Olympic Taekwondo fights? Throw a strike at your opponent then run away and jump up and down flailing your hands in the air like you KO'd Mike Tyson in his prime.
What they haven't said here (ie FightMetric) is how much 'effectiveness' qualifies as a convincing win in a championship fight. Their analysis simply shows who did what and how many times and use this to predict the likelihood of who would win the fight (if it went to the end) based on historical fights in the past, ie. what they believe are 'effective' strikes to win a decision from past fights.
Just like in stats, extreme examples can be enlightening:
Roknroll vs Rumdiary, 3 round non-title fight
Round 1: RnR lands 2 power jabs to the head but sustains devastating leg strikes throughout the round in which RD lands 45. RnR limps back to his corner reminiscent of the walk home from the local watering hole on Saturday mornings.
Round 2: Despite the painful hobbling around, RnR manages to land a straight right to the chops of RD followed by a stiff jab to the nose that draws a trickle of blood. RD appears discomboblulated and spends the rest of the round utilizing his speed advantage to avoid RnR and feverishly seeking out an unknown in the crowd all the while.
Round 3: After a great pep-talk between rounds, RD seems to have his game face back on, ready to punish the awkward, sluggish RnR. RD lines up his patented round-house kick to RnR's lead leg. Just as it lands, RnR manages to get in a solid left hook that nullifies the leg kick and sends RD into the ropes. RnR staggers to the ropes to follow-up and lands another hook to the head of the retreating RD. Astonishlingy, the remainder of the round involved RnR chasing RD around the ring. The previously sought out person turned out to be RD's mother who had finally appeared at ringside after hearing the calls of her distressed son: mommy, mommy, help me.
FightMetric Decision:
R1: RnR 2 RD 45; R2: RnR 2 RD 0; R3: RnR 2 RD 1
Total: RnR 6 RD 46 Winner: RD
As I mentioned b4, the only ground the judges have to stand on is the 'convincing' factor. In a non-title fight, Rua would've won. Again, I personally don't care too much which way it's judged cus it's the rematch that both fighters need to seal the deal (especially Machida).
Silva vs Belfort should be simply awesome. I hope we get to see Silva vs Rua in the near future. |
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