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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
[q
1. Yehuda Hiss, Israel�s chief pathologist and, from 1988 through 2004, director of Israel�s state morgue, the L. Greenberg Institute of Forensic Medicine at Abu Kabir, was removed for stealing body parts; and
2. Israel is under investigation by the International Court of Justice for war crimes relating to organ harvesting. |
1. He stole Israeli body parts as well. This doesn't really back up the title of your thread. |
If he
| Quote: |
| stole Israeli body parts as well |
as those of Gazan Palestinians, yes it does support my thread title.
But maybe you are right. He stole Israeli as well as Palestinian body parts, so that makes everything fine then. 
Let me state for the record, since there are so many here so quick to mischaracterize my position, that I am firmly opposed to the stealing of Israeli body parts as well.
| Quote: |
| 2. The ICJ is doing an investigation...that's its mandate. |
Glad we agree. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
[q
1. Yehuda Hiss, Israel�s chief pathologist and, from 1988 through 2004, director of Israel�s state morgue, the L. Greenberg Institute of Forensic Medicine at Abu Kabir, was removed for stealing body parts; and
2. Israel is under investigation by the International Court of Justice for war crimes relating to organ harvesting. |
1. He stole Israeli body parts as well. This doesn't really back up the title of your thread. |
If he
| Quote: |
| stole Israeli body parts as well |
as those of Gazan Palestinians, yes it does support my thread title.
But maybe you are right. He stole Israeli as well as Palestinian body parts, so that makes everything fine then.
Let me state for the record, since there are so many here so quick to mischaracterize my position, that I am firmly opposed to the stealing of Israeli body parts as well.
| Quote: |
| 2. The ICJ is doing an investigation...that's its mandate. |
Glad we agree. |
There aren't that many Israelis living in Gaza these days, and your thread title was Gaza Israeli's organ farm. Moreover that was ONE doctor and not all of Israel's doctors.
So that doesn't support the thread title.
And no it doesn't make everything fine...it does however not lend any support to your position. In other words he didn't steal because he was biased against the Gazans, he stole because he was greedy and it didn't matter to him where they came from. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
There aren't that many Israelis living in Gaza these days, and your thread title was Gaza Israeli's organ farm. Moreover that was ONE doctor and not all of Israel's doctors.
So that doesn't support the thread title.
And no it doesn't make everything fine...it does however not lend any support to your position. In other words he didn't steal because he was biased against the Gazans, he stole because he was greedy and it didn't matter to him where they came from. |
No, the title was "Gaza: Israel's organ farm," not "Gaza: Israel's exclusive organ farm." I never said the Israelis he stole from were in Gaza. I never said anything about "all of Israel's doctors." Don't read anything into what I say. If I don't explicitly state something, don't attribute it to me. It is getting tiresome to have to correct one error after another of yours.
So the thread title should have been, "Gaza: One of Israel's many organ farms"?
I guess you just want to keep nitpicking details and missing the point made in the articles cited, which is that Israel is at the pinnacle of the world's illicit organ trade, and victims were from Gaza (as well as elsewhere). |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Discredited? No it wasn't. It was denied, by Netanyahu -- a thug. Certainly not discredited.
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Yes it has. Type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs discredited" into Google and you will get quite a few articles about it. |
Funny, if you type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs supported" you come up with this story:
Swedish tabloid cleared over Israel organ claims
Published: 20 Sep 09 10:23 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/22182/20090920/
| Quote: |
A Swedish tabloid newspaper has been cleared of racism charges by the country's senior legal official over a story alleging that Israeli soldiers stole and sold body parts of dead Palestinians.
The Swedish Chancellor of Justice, G�ran Lambertz, was asked to probe whether the report in the Aftonbladet tabloid last month amounted to inciting racial hatred and violated freedom of expression laws.
The TT news agency said the Chancellor of Justice had decided not to open a preliminary investigation into the case.
The Chancellor of Justice, who was unavailable for comment on Saturday, is a government-appointed official who acts as an independent judicial watchdog and is the only prosecutor in Sweden who can take legal action in cases concerning freedom of speech.
Aftonbladet alleged in a story in August that Israeli soldiers had been involved in the illegal harvesting and trafficking of human organs.
The claims sparked outrage in Israel and prompted senior figures in the Israeli government to demand that Sweden condemn the report.
But Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt rebuffed the calls, stressing a free press is an integral part of democracy. |
But thanks for showing us all how you argue. You take the conclusion you want to see, and then search for evidence supporting it.
You made a correct choice in not entering the science field. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I've been following this thread and reading the articles/references etc...
I still stand by my own belief (despite still thinking Netanyahu a thug too) that it is simple implausible. There is no way in the world this could be pulled off in this day and age and the risk to politicians too big. This belongs in the non plausible category.
Following up on that - it does no good to go down this avenue of "demonizing" of "Jews". This story doesn't just reflect on zionist Bcasper. It is a racist and time told tactic of tarring and feathering the group we call "Jews". I reject that.
Let's keep nailing to the wall how soldiers killed unarmed women and children and how they continue to brutally jeer/taunt/beat and humiliate a whole group of people. This is true, not just "plausible".
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Discredited? No it wasn't. It was denied, by Netanyahu -- a thug. Certainly not discredited.
|
Yes it has. Type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs discredited" into Google and you will get quite a few articles about it. |
Funny, if you type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs supported" you come up with this story:
Swedish tabloid cleared over Israel organ claims
Published: 20 Sep 09 10:23 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/22182/20090920/
| Quote: |
A Swedish tabloid newspaper has been cleared of racism charges by the country's senior legal official over a story alleging that Israeli soldiers stole and sold body parts of dead Palestinians.
The Swedish Chancellor of Justice, G�ran Lambertz, was asked to probe whether the report in the Aftonbladet tabloid last month amounted to inciting racial hatred and violated freedom of expression laws.
The TT news agency said the Chancellor of Justice had decided not to open a preliminary investigation into the case.
The Chancellor of Justice, who was unavailable for comment on Saturday, is a government-appointed official who acts as an independent judicial watchdog and is the only prosecutor in Sweden who can take legal action in cases concerning freedom of speech.
Aftonbladet alleged in a story in August that Israeli soldiers had been involved in the illegal harvesting and trafficking of human organs.
The claims sparked outrage in Israel and prompted senior figures in the Israeli government to demand that Sweden condemn the report.
But Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt rebuffed the calls, stressing a free press is an integral part of democracy. |
But thanks for showing us all how you argue. You take the conclusion you want to see, and then search for evidence supporting it.
You made a correct choice in not entering the science field. |
So did you apparently. The article clearly uses the word "alleged" a couple of times in reference to the claims of organ harvesting. And it does NOT support the story it just says the newspaper was cleared of racism charges. So the story itself wasn't supported just the ability of the newspaper to print such stories.
My original claim (that the story is unsupported by ANY factual evidence) still stands.
And other people (who don't have an agenda to push) can clearly see that as well, even those who don't usually agree with me. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
There aren't that many Israelis living in Gaza these days, and your thread title was Gaza Israeli's organ farm. Moreover that was ONE doctor and not all of Israel's doctors.
So that doesn't support the thread title.
And no it doesn't make everything fine...it does however not lend any support to your position. In other words he didn't steal because he was biased against the Gazans, he stole because he was greedy and it didn't matter to him where they came from. |
No, the title was "Gaza: Israel's organ farm," not "Gaza: Israel's exclusive organ farm." I never said the Israelis he stole from were in Gaza. I never said anything about "all of Israel's doctors." Don't read anything into what I say. If I don't explicitly state something, don't attribute it to me. It is getting tiresome to have to correct one error after another of yours.
As it is yours. Where did I say that you said that the Israelis he stole from were in Gaza? Where did I say that you said anything about "all of Israel's doctors? I was merely pointing out that your claim about this particular doctor is pointless as one doctor's actions are not representative of the title. I'm going to have to borrow a line from you and ask you "If I don't explicitly state something, don't attribute it to me."
So the thread title should have been, "Gaza: One of Israel's many organ farms"?
I guess you just want to keep nitpicking details and missing the point made in the articles cited, which is that Israel is at the pinnacle of the world's illicit organ trade, and victims were from Gaza (as well as elsewhere). |
Nope, I'm disputing that point entirely...until I see concrete evidence and not unsupported statements from authors who admit they print stories without doing any research to back it up. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Discredited? No it wasn't. It was denied, by Netanyahu -- a thug. Certainly not discredited.
|
Yes it has. Type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs discredited" into Google and you will get quite a few articles about it. |
Funny, if you type in "Swedish story about Israeli organs supported" you come up with this story:
Swedish tabloid cleared over Israel organ claims
Published: 20 Sep 09 10:23 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/22182/20090920/
| Quote: |
A Swedish tabloid newspaper has been cleared of racism charges by the country's senior legal official over a story alleging that Israeli soldiers stole and sold body parts of dead Palestinians.
The Swedish Chancellor of Justice, G�ran Lambertz, was asked to probe whether the report in the Aftonbladet tabloid last month amounted to inciting racial hatred and violated freedom of expression laws.
The TT news agency said the Chancellor of Justice had decided not to open a preliminary investigation into the case.
The Chancellor of Justice, who was unavailable for comment on Saturday, is a government-appointed official who acts as an independent judicial watchdog and is the only prosecutor in Sweden who can take legal action in cases concerning freedom of speech.
Aftonbladet alleged in a story in August that Israeli soldiers had been involved in the illegal harvesting and trafficking of human organs.
The claims sparked outrage in Israel and prompted senior figures in the Israeli government to demand that Sweden condemn the report.
But Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt rebuffed the calls, stressing a free press is an integral part of democracy. |
But thanks for showing us all how you argue. You take the conclusion you want to see, and then search for evidence supporting it.
You made a correct choice in not entering the science field. |
So did you apparently. |
That is how you began your comments on this thread. I only did it after you made a similar suggestion to prove my assertion that one can find something to support one's position, no matter what it is. This is where critical thinking comes in.
| Quote: |
| The article clearly uses the word "alleged" a couple of times in reference to the claims of organ harvesting. And it does NOT support the story it just says the newspaper was cleared of racism charges. So the story itself wasn't supported just the ability of the newspaper to print such stories. |
Even less it supports your claim that the story was discredited.
| Quote: |
| My original claim (that the story is unsupported by ANY factual evidence) still stands. |
No, your original claim is that the story was discredited.
| Quote: |
| And other people (who don't have an agenda to push) can clearly see that as well, even those who don't usually agree with me. |
Yes, and those who do not use a cherry picker to seek out anything online which supports one's prejudices can see that I have an agenda - to seek out facts objectively, regardless of which side they are on, to get at the truth.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
There aren't that many Israelis living in Gaza these days, and your thread title was Gaza Israeli's organ farm. Moreover that was ONE doctor and not all of Israel's doctors.
So that doesn't support the thread title.
And no it doesn't make everything fine...it does however not lend any support to your position. In other words he didn't steal because he was biased against the Gazans, he stole because he was greedy and it didn't matter to him where they came from. |
No, the title was "Gaza: Israel's organ farm," not "Gaza: Israel's exclusive organ farm." I never said the Israelis he stole from were in Gaza. I never said anything about "all of Israel's doctors." Don't read anything into what I say. If I don't explicitly state something, don't attribute it to me. It is getting tiresome to have to correct one error after another of yours.
As it is yours. Where did I say that you said that the Israelis he stole from were in Gaza? Where did I say that you said anything about "all of Israel's doctors? I was merely pointing out that your claim about this particular doctor is pointless as one doctor's actions are not representative of the title. I'm going to have to borrow a line from you and ask you "If I don't explicitly state something, don't attribute it to me."
So the thread title should have been, "Gaza: One of Israel's many organ farms"?
I guess you just want to keep nitpicking details and missing the point made in the articles cited, which is that Israel is at the pinnacle of the world's illicit organ trade, and victims were from Gaza (as well as elsewhere). |
Nope, I'm disputing that point entirely...until I see concrete evidence and not unsupported statements from authors who admit they print stories without doing any research to back it up. |
And stop putting your words in my quote box. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| bacasper wrote: |
[
| Quote: |
| My original claim (that the story is unsupported by ANY factual evidence) still stands. |
No, your original claim is that the story was discredited.
[x. |
If the story is unsupported by any factual evidence and moreover the writer has admitted he didn't check the facts, then that discredits the story in and of itself.
I could say that the Palestinians are engaging in organ stealing. Of course I have no factual evidence for it and I didn't check the facts...but hey it's the exact same thing the writer is doing in his article about Israelis and that's apparently good enough for some people here. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
[
| Quote: |
| My original claim (that the story is unsupported by ANY factual evidence) still stands. |
No, your original claim is that the story was discredited.
[x. |
If the story is unsupported by any factual evidence and moreover the writer has admitted he didn't check the facts, then that discredits the story in and of itself.
|
From what I understand, he didn't make any claims. He asked questions. I've no doubt the headline was intended to be sensational (not unusual for any paper). Things did happen to Palestinian youths - they were taken away for days at a time, with post mortems conducted against family wishes. That in itself was quite wrong. He collected testimony and he did have some circumstantial evidence - i.e. he did get a photo of a dead youth with his body sewn up from groin to chin - a youth that apparantly needed a post mortem (something usually used to determine cause of death) - despite the clear evidence of a bullet hole through the heart. He has called for an investigation. I don't see anything wrong in that.
Nothing wrong with an investigation. If the IDF are innocent, then they should be in favour of one. Then these long standing rumours can be put to rest.
And for one thing, what happened to that kid was very wrong, organ theft or not, and there was no need for him to be shot like an animal. That should have been investigated for that reason alone. But these gungho shootings happen all the time, and they are very rarely investigated.
There were also scandals at that time of dead Israelis being robbed of organs without family consent. Some Israelis refused to let their family members die in hospital for that very reason. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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If you look at BB's first link above, these are the facts reported by the journalist who continues to stand by his story.
He spoke to approximately 20 Gazan Palestinian families who told him stories similar to that presented in BB's second link: their sons were killed by Israeli soldiers and taken away; "autopsies" were performed without the family's consent; the bodies were returned to them in the middle of the night.
The recent FBI arrest of a rabbi in New York for trafficking organs is what makes this story timely. Also, in 2007 Israeli police arrested eight Israelis for organ trafficking.
Bostrom and the families are merely seeking answers and explanations. No one ever said they had absolute air-tight proof, just a highly suggestive set of facts. Does that mean you do not believe it? Otherwise, what's your explanation? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
If you look at BB's first link above, these are the facts reported by the journalist who continues to stand by his story.
He spoke to approximately 20 Gazan Palestinian families who told him stories similar to that presented in BB's second link: their sons were killed by Israeli soldiers and taken away; "autopsies" were performed without the family's consent; the bodies were returned to them in the middle of the night.
The recent FBI arrest of a rabbi in New York for trafficking organs is what makes this story timely. Also, in 2007 Israeli police arrested eight Israelis for organ trafficking.
Bostrom and the families are merely seeking answers and explanations. No one ever said they had absolute air-tight proof, just a highly suggestive set of facts. Does that mean you do not believe it? Otherwise, what's your explanation? |
Anecdotes (unverifiable ones to boot) do not equate to "facts". Come on Mr. bacasper you're an intelligent human being and thus know this as well as I do.
That aside, no I don't believe it. We only have the word of one journalist who himself has said that he doesn't know that these stories are true.
I don't ask for "absolute airtight proof"...I do however ask for more than unsupported rumors and the actions of a few bad apples. One does not necessarily correlate with the other. If Israel is indeed harvesting organs from Palestinians and this is a large scale operation which has been (apparently) going on for years...one has to think we'd have something more than some vague article based on some vague stories. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Gaza: Israel's Organ Farm |
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From what I understand, he didn't make any claims. He asked questions. I've no doubt the headline was intended to be sensational (not unusual for any paper). Things did happen to Palestinian youths - they were taken away for days at a time, with post mortems conducted against family wishes. That in itself was quite wrong. He collected testimony and he did have some circumstantial evidence - i.e. he did get a photo of a dead youth with his body sewn up from groin to chin - a youth that apparantly needed a post mortem (something usually used to determine cause of death) - despite the clear evidence of a bullet hole through the heart. He has called for an investigation. I don't see anything wrong in that.
.[/quote]
(bolding mine...to show what I am replying to)
According to bacasper's post just below...he did in fact make some claims. He claimed to speak to 20 or so families and he claimed this is what they told him.
A bullet hole through the heart does not seem to be the actions of those who shoot people for their vital organs. Just saying.
As for the investigation, nor do I. But it should be conducted by an impartial group. The highly biased Goldberg report makes that absolutely clear as The Economist pointed out. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
If you look at BB's first link above, these are the facts reported by the journalist who continues to stand by his story.
He spoke to approximately 20 Gazan Palestinian families who told him stories similar to that presented in BB's second link: their sons were killed by Israeli soldiers and taken away; "autopsies" were performed without the family's consent; the bodies were returned to them in the middle of the night.
The recent FBI arrest of a rabbi in New York for trafficking organs is what makes this story timely. Also, in 2007 Israeli police arrested eight Israelis for organ trafficking.
Bostrom and the families are merely seeking answers and explanations. No one ever said they had absolute air-tight proof, just a highly suggestive set of facts. Does that mean you do not believe it? Otherwise, what's your explanation? |
Anecdotes (unverifiable ones to boot) do not equate to "facts". Come on Mr. bacasper you're an intelligent human being and thus know this as well as I do.
That aside, no I don't believe it. We only have the word of one journalist who himself has said that he doesn't know that these stories are true.
I don't ask for "absolute airtight proof"...I do however ask for more than unsupported rumors and the actions of a few bad apples. One does not necessarily correlate with the other. If Israel is indeed harvesting organs from Palestinians and this is a large scale operation which has been (apparently) going on for years...one has to think we'd have something more than some vague article based on some vague stories. |
So now the journalist is a liar? Twenty families with dead sons is an "unsupported rumor"? He staged those photos of dead Palestinian family members with bullet holes to the heart and scars down the middle of the chest and is falling for a conspiracy by the families?
Since you seem to have missed them the first time, here again is a by no means exhaustive list of facts for this story.
Fact #1: Bostrum interviewed 20 Palestinian families.
Fact #2: They told him stories similar to that here.
Fact #3: Autopsies were performed without the families' consent.
Fact #4: The bodies were returned in the middle of the night.
Fact #5: In 2007, Israeli police arrested eight Israelis for organ trafficking.
Fact #6: Nancy Scheper-Hughes, perhaps the foremost authority on organ trafficking, places Israel at the top of the worldwide trade.
Everyone can draw their own conclusions. And people certainly deserve to have their questions answered. |
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