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Lack of respect for the waegookin?
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I'm no Picasso



Joined: 28 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mateomiguel wrote:
I specifically do not want any of my students to use the respectful kind of Korean with me, because the whole absolute-respect-for-authority idea that is behind that whole act is repulsive to me. Also it gets in the way of learning. The only way to be an effective teacher of language is to throw all that crap out so it doesn't get in the way of conversation learning.


It's not about using respectful Korean, though. It's about using disrespectful Korean.

Again, I'll restate: if a student greets you in a shortened form, the chances that they are trying to be "friendly" are extremely low. They are trying to be disrespectful. It's not the action -- it's the intent.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mateomiguel wrote:
I specifically do not want any of my students to use the respectful kind of Korean with me, because the whole absolute-respect-for-authority idea that is behind that whole act is repulsive to me. Also it gets in the way of learning. The only way to be an effective teacher of language is to throw all that crap out so it doesn't get in the way of conversation learning.



Allowing your students to be rude or disrespectful as they wish tends to get in the way of conversation learning even more.
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Manuel_the_Bandito



Joined: 12 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Goku wrote:

Frankly, if I were a Korean kid, i'd probably be doing shit to the weigook teacher all the time.

.


In that case if you were a Korean kid and in my class, I hope you like doing push-ups and kneeling on the floor with your arms in the air, because you'd be doing a lot of that.

And if it persisted, I'd whip out my cell phone and call up your parents...or hand you over to the school disciplinarian.

Frankly I don't know why anyone is having a hard time with students....if they are adults/college students that's one thing...but kids are another.


I don't understand either. To answer the OP, it's because the kids think you're a clueless foreign wimp. They might be right about this.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kids using 반말 to you is disrespectful. A Korean kid doing it to a Korean teacher would get smacked. I suspect they do it because they think you won't understand what they're saying and they won't get as harsh of a punishment from you.

I sat in on a class once with an American woman teaching 10-12 year olds. The kids were talking about how the teacher looked like an ugly pig and laughing. The woman had no idea what they were saying.
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Kurtz



Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Location: ples bilong me

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we talking in or out of class here? what age? Give elementary some slack.

In class, I think it's a lack of respect for a student to say hi (well just a little bit) but out of class, annyeong is fine, as they see me as a friend.
I mean annyeong from a young child in a friendly manner, not some teenager taking the piss.

Isn't that part of the reason we are here, so kids don't feel afraid of us waegookin and to break down certain barriers? I don't believe in this heavy handed approach of demanding full respect, but then again, I only teach the little whipper snappers.

I do make them bow and say thank you teacher at the end of every class.

Have to let them know who is boss before they leave.
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asams



Joined: 17 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manuel_the_Bandito wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Goku wrote:

Frankly, if I were a Korean kid, i'd probably be doing shit to the weigook teacher all the time.

.


In that case if you were a Korean kid and in my class, I hope you like doing push-ups and kneeling on the floor with your arms in the air, because you'd be doing a lot of that.

And if it persisted, I'd whip out my cell phone and call up your parents...or hand you over to the school disciplinarian.

Frankly I don't know why anyone is having a hard time with students....if they are adults/college students that's one thing...but kids are another.


I don't understand either. To answer the OP, it's because the kids think you're a clueless foreign wimp. They might be right about this.


No, I'm not a clueless foreign wimp. I don't really want them to see me as someone in absolute authority, because I'm trying to instill in them the belief that everything should be questioned (how else are we supposed to learn) but I do believe I should be granted the same respect as the Korean teachers. I don't think I would ever go up to one of my college professors and say "What's up man?" even though most of them would say it to me. Trust me, I've given kids a hard time before and told them they will address me with the proper respectful terms.

To clarify, it's not that many students, and for the most part I get the bows and proper greetings, but the few that I do I do make an example of. I'm just wondering why they think it's right to do it in the first place.
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Manuel_the_Bandito



Joined: 12 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asams wrote:
Manuel_the_Bandito wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Goku wrote:

Frankly, if I were a Korean kid, i'd probably be doing shit to the weigook teacher all the time.

.


In that case if you were a Korean kid and in my class, I hope you like doing push-ups and kneeling on the floor with your arms in the air, because you'd be doing a lot of that.

And if it persisted, I'd whip out my cell phone and call up your parents...or hand you over to the school disciplinarian.

Frankly I don't know why anyone is having a hard time with students....if they are adults/college students that's one thing...but kids are another.


I don't understand either. To answer the OP, it's because the kids think you're a clueless foreign wimp. They might be right about this.


No, I'm not a clueless foreign wimp. I don't really want them to see me as someone in absolute authority, because I'm trying to instill in them the belief that everything should be questioned (how else are we supposed to learn) but I do believe I should be granted the same respect as the Korean teachers. I don't think I would ever go up to one of my college professors and say "What's up man?" even though most of them would say it to me. Trust me, I've given kids a hard time before and told them they will address me with the proper respectful terms.

To clarify, it's not that many students, and for the most part I get the bows and proper greetings, but the few that I do I do make an example of. I'm just wondering why they think it's right to do it in the first place.


Perhaps they went to Wonderland or a similar hagwon that makes degrading foreigners part of their policy.
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Manuel_the_Bandito



Joined: 12 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurtz wrote:
Are we talking in or out of class here? what age? Give elementary some slack.

In class, I think it's a lack of respect for a student to say hi (well just a little bit) but out of class, annyeong is fine, as they see me as a friend.
I mean annyeong from a young child in a friendly manner, not some teenager taking the piss.

Isn't that part of the reason we are here, so kids don't feel afraid of us waegookin and to break down certain barriers? I don't believe in this heavy handed approach of demanding full respect, but then again, I only teach the little whipper snappers.

I do make them bow and say thank you teacher at the end of every class.

Have to let them know who is boss before they leave.


If you think that's going to help you're sadly mistaken.
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detourne_me



Joined: 26 May 2006

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Mateo's style.

Also if they are being disrespectful, I say "Sure! But say it in English"
It's a challenge to them, they're being disrespectful because they want a challenge. Sometimes the kids that stand up to the teacher can come up with the most inventive uses of English, and I'm not talking about cursing.

And if that's not the case, who cares? Do you really cry yourself to sleep because a student is trying to be friendly or disrespectful to you?
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I'm no Picasso



Joined: 28 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys you really are missing the point here.

Them greeting you with "안녕!" is not about not being an authority figure. They would not greet a student at the same school even a few years older than them that way, nor would they call a child one year older a "friend". It's not done.

If they want to be "Western style" with you, then they can greet you in English, casually, with "hi". If they greet you in Korean with "안녕", they are showing you disrespect. As in, they are treating you lower than they would treat any other human being in the same situation.

"안녕" is disrespectful when spoken to a teacher. Period, the end. It's not the same as our culture -- you can't compare it to saying "hi".
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Bog Roll



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
Location: JongnoGuru country. RIP mate.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goku wrote:
I get the sense is because weigooks don't carry the air of respect.

I'm not saying it's specifically you, but generally all the weigookins around me act like clowns, walk like hunchbacks, wear inappropriate clothing and are socially awkward.

I sometimes think to myself, if I were a Korean kid, would I give them respect? Probably not, as a kid, I'm having a hard enough time giving my regular teachers respect, the weigookin would be an easy target to shoot off of. Frankly, if I were a Korean kid, i'd probably be doing shit to the weigook teacher all the time.

It's just how kids are, they are going to single out and disrespect the one who stands out. Although, my own kids treat me ... somewhat respectfully. I don't act like a nutter that's for sure and I keep jokes minimal. Although when they do try to mess with me, I understand them. I don't like it or tolerate it, but I understand where they are coming from because I too was a complete A-hole as a child.


Goku - you must think we are all as stupid as you - do you think we all have the memory of a retarded gnat? Rolling Eyes

You have told us or have written on here on numerous occasions that you are popular because you play WoW and you can talk to the students about that, you also have commented that your bosses have said that you smell/or have bad dandruff and that you are always late because you play starcraft and the VP/Principal has got you in the office for a shoeing over the matter - so I don't think you should be commenting on which foreigners command respect when you obviously don't. Rolling Eyes
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steveinincheon



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: in The Shadows of Gyeyangsan

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all there is nothing wrong with greeting a teacher with hi or hello in North America. This is how most of the students here greet me too. Occasionally I get an Annyeong Haseyo, and less frequently an Annyeong (my computer cant do Hangeul ). I don't know how it is where you teach, but here the 3rd graders were taught that hi and hello mean annyeong in Korean. They were also taught to greet me with Hello Teacher! Now, if they were taught that they should say "hello teacher" when they see me, and that hello means annyeong - then why should I be upset if they say annyeong? It is rare that I am addressed in Korean by the students here, but when I am an "annyeong" is often followed by a question in the polite form with all the appropriate honorifics.

Yes, it is vitally important to have your students respect you. But to get so bent out of shape over the specific way in which you are addressed in a language that you hardly speak is really quite ridiculous.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveinincheon wrote:
First of all there is nothing wrong with greeting a teacher with hi or hello in North America. This is how most of the students here greet me too. Occasionally I get an Annyeong Haseyo, and less frequently an Annyeong (my computer cant do Hangeul ). I don't know how it is where you teach, but here the 3rd graders were taught that hi and hello mean annyeong in Korean. They were also taught to greet me with Hello Teacher! Now, if they were taught that they should say "hello teacher" when they see me, and that hello means annyeong - then why should I be upset if they say annyeong? It is rare that I am addressed in Korean by the students here, but when I am an "annyeong" is often followed by a question in the polite form with all the appropriate honorifics.

Yes, it is vitally important to have your students respect you. But to get so bent out of shape over the specific way in which you are addressed in a language that you hardly speak is really quite ridiculous.


People aren't being bent out of shape over the specific way per se, they're being bent out of shape by the intent BEHIND the way they are being addressed.

Bottom line. If the students respect you the same as a Korean teacher, you are going to have a lot less discipline problems in your class. And a lot less discipline problems means more time teaching/learning and less time disciplining.

Why do you think SO MANY people on here are constantly complaining about specific classes or students?

As was already said students wouldn't address someone who was even one year older like that. If they do it to you it means that they see you as inferior to them...like it or not. Remember you are in a society that bases its relationships on AGE AND RANK. THIS ISN'T THE WEST.

No wonder so many people are also having trouble with their co-teachers...they see the kids disrespecting you and then think "Oh if he doesn't mind why shouldn't I disrespect him as well? After all I'm older and superior to the children...why should they be allowed to address him causally and not me?"
(of course it's not as clear-cut as that...but something like that has to cross their minds eventually).

Come on. I'm known as one of the biggest Korean apologists on here, but on this one I have to agree with the opposing side.
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b-class rambler



Joined: 25 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no Picasso wrote:
Guys you really are missing the point here.

Them greeting you with "안녕!" is not about not being an authority figure. They would not greet a student at the same school even a few years older than them that way, nor would they call a child one year older a "friend". It's not done.

If they want to be "Western style" with you, then they can greet you in English, casually, with "hi". If they greet you in Korean with "안녕", they are showing you disrespect. As in, they are treating you lower than they would treat any other human being in the same situation.

"안녕" is disrespectful when spoken to a teacher. Period, the end. It's not the same as our culture -- you can't compare it to saying "hi".


Ok, question for you.

Student 1 says "안녕!" to you as you enter the classroom. S/he then says to other students "영어선생님 오셨다!"

Student 2 says "안녕 하세요!" to you as you enter the classroom. S/he then says to other students "[your first name] 왔다!"

Which one (if either) would you consider to have disrespected you the most? And what would you do about it?
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themagicbean



Joined: 04 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you speak decent Korean, just correct them. Ask them in Korean, in a stern non-threatening tone, if they address their other teachers that way. (Tarun sonsangnim "anyongda" go haeyo?) Ask them if you're their little brother. (Na-nun namdongsang ieyo?") Then tell them to "annyong hashimnikka" ("Annyong hashimnikka" mal haseyo). Should get the point across. Smile after it's done so they know you're still cool.

My hangeul typing skills suck but you should be able to reverse-engineer what I meant.


Last edited by themagicbean on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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