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Lack of respect for the waegookin?
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Manuel_the_Bandito

Joined: 12 Sep 2009

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject:

detourne_me wrote:

So I haven't a clue about how the culture works? And you've deducted this from reading a few of my posts on a forum about how I tolerate children?
Interesting. Look out, Batman! Seems there is a new World's Greatest Detective.

oh, whoops. Forgot to answer your question. Kids don't say anyong to me if they don't know me, they say Hello, or Hi. So, sorry, I haven't got an excuse for you.

You've been in Korea since at least 2006 and it's never happened once? Why am I getting the impression you're feeding us a complete line of BS? How about me and everyone else to whom it has happened?

Thank goodness I don't have to work with teachers like you who not only promote disrespectfulness from their pupils but promote it being directed at foreigners.

Old Gil

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Goku wrote:

Frankly, if I were a Korean kid, i'd probably be doing shit to the weigook teacher all the time.

.

In that case if you were a Korean kid and in my class, I hope you like doing push-ups and kneeling on the floor with your arms in the air, because you'd be doing a lot of that.

And if it persisted, I'd whip out my cell phone and call up your parents...or hand you over to the school disciplinarian.

Frankly I don't know why anyone is having a hard time with students....if they are adults/college students that's one thing...but kids are another.

What are you talking about? Adults are way more motivated students and cause 1000% less problems in class. Whatever it takes to make you come out on top in your own mind right?

detourne_me

Joined: 26 May 2006

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:09 am Post subject:

Manuel_the_Bandito wrote:

detourne_me wrote:

woah dude, chill out, you're so hung up on absolutes and dualities.
maybe it has happened to me, but definitely not enough for me to remember, or get so worked up over.

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:32 am Post subject:

b-class rambler wrote:

I'm no Picasso wrote:

Guys you really are missing the point here.

Them greeting you with "안녕!" is not about not being an authority figure. They would not greet a student at the same school even a few years older than them that way, nor would they call a child one year older a "friend". It's not done.

If they want to be "Western style" with you, then they can greet you in English, casually, with "hi". If they greet you in Korean with "안녕", they are showing you disrespect. As in, they are treating you lower than they would treat any other human being in the same situation.

"안녕" is disrespectful when spoken to a teacher. Period, the end. It's not the same as our culture -- you can't compare it to saying "hi".

Ok, question for you.

Student 1 says "안녕!" to you as you enter the classroom. S/he then says to other students "영어선생님 오셨다!"

Student 2 says "안녕 하세요!" to you as you enter the classroom. S/he then says to other students "[your first name] 왔다!"

Which one (if either) would you consider to have disrespected you the most? And what would you do about it?

The first one. I'm going to overlook the fact that said scenario is highly, highly unlikely. As in, it would never happen. But in the second case, "왔다" is not *as* disrespectful as directly addressing a teacher in banmal. Just as I don't get bent out of shape over the occasional "없어", because sometimes those things do come out as a matter of habit. Addressing a teacher with "안녕" goes against their natural habit. Which means they are going out of their way to make a point.

As for my name, I let the students use it. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think in this thread, I'm not a super strict 'respect my authority' teacher. I do want the students to feel comfortable with me -- more comfortable than they do with their Korean teachers. They can use my name as long as they are speaking English. That having been said, I have more trouble getting them to stop saying "Teacher feel sick today?" and things of the like, instead....

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:36 am Post subject:

calicoe wrote:

I'm no Picasso wrote:

This.

But, I want to add or ask something further - connoting disrespect in English with tone. For example, they say "bye" and "bye-bye" in a rough, loud, rude tone. Does this happen to you?

This is after I have to say good-bye to them about 2 or 3 times before they respond. I was especially irate today, because I just finished giving them candy and prizes and attempting to play Halloween games with them. It worked well with the other classes, but my last class has been disrespectful, mean little punks since the beginning of the term. I did win them over for awhile, but they seem to lapse back into it very easily. I should have never followed through with the party for them, but I did.

Am I "over-sensitive" about their tone, as my Ko-teacher has just informed me? Funny, I certainly don't hear the students using the same tone with Korean teachers. But somehow, it is always me who misunderstands, is too strict, or "over-sensitive". I had the pleasure of telling my Ko-teacher that she wouldn't understand because she isn't a foreigner in Korea and has never taught in another country - nice change of pace from the "you don't understand Korean culture" bit.

I just decided not to renew today. Frick 'em.

Sorry for the rant. So, am I "oversensitive"?

No. I can't stand it when students scream in my face in English. If I get an overly aggressive, "HI!" in the hallway, I just walk up really close to the student's face and say, "HI! HOW ARE YOU? DO YOU LIKE THIS? NO? I DON'T LIKE IT EITHER. WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING AT ME?" Everyone laughs and we move on, but I've made my point.

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:40 am Post subject:

b-class rambler wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

People aren't being bent out of shape over the specific way per se, they're being bent out of shape by the intent BEHIND the way they are being addressed.

In many cases I'd bet they're being bent of shape by what they assume to be the intent behind the way they are being addressed.

But how just safe are those assumptions?

Steve's point is a perfectly fair one that there are students who've been taught, reasonably enough, that you say hi/hello to foreigners; fair enough, you do & mostly no problem.
They've also learnt that hi/hello is the English equivalent of "안녕"; a potentially confusing oversimplification, I'd argue, but we ARE talking about kids here, so again not an unacceptable translation.

Yes, it might be that they say "안녕" to you out of intentional disrespect, and if so there'll be other things making this obvious. But it's also quite feasible that they've simply put 2 and 2 together - we say hi/hello to foreigners and that would be 안녕 in Korean. Indeed, if there was intention to disrespect, why the hell would the same kids then refer to you using respectful language?

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Bottom line. If the students respect you the same as a Korean teacher, you are going to have a lot less discipline problems in your class. And a lot less discipline problems means more time teaching/learning and less time disciplining.

I agree. But to accurately judge whether or not you're being disrespected you need to look at the wider picture. Simply determining from students using one particular Korean greeting or another to a non-Korean is not using a very wide picture. If your Korean is limited to the extent that this is those are the only Korean words you can make a judgment from, then fair enough but you're better off judging from something else in that case, which isn't that difficult - if it's beyond a teacher to determine disrespect or not without checking if the student said 안녕 or 안녕 하세요 then that teacher shouldn't be in the classroom.

It's simple enough, man. When a student greets you with 안녕, stop and look them in the eyes. Repeat it back to them: "안녕?" Watch how they react. Every single time it's happened and I've addressed it this way, they immediately apologize and bow. They know what they are doing.

That having been said, I work at a middle school. I'm willing to grant a bit more leniency for younger kids, as I've had no experience with them anyway. My students, at any rate, know the score.

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:45 am Post subject:

detourne_me wrote:

I'm no Picasso wrote:

You're missing the point here, as well as contradicting yourself.
It's a kid that says this, when a kid is comfortable speaking to someone they will use banmal. Heck, the same goes for adults too. My girlfriend is constantly telling me that i sound weird using jongdemal when i'm speaking to her or our friends.

A reason why students speak in higher forms to students older than them is because they FEAR getting hit in the back of the head.
true respect means letting your guard down, not being superficial.

I'm not contradicting myself at all, and... for lack of a more gentle way of saying this, you are wrong. A Korean child would never, ever, ever address a teacher in banmal unless they wanted to have the crap kicked out of them by the head PE teacher. I've seen the results of what happens when a student speaks banmal to a teacher. It's worse than smoking, worse than forged report cards.... it is that serious. A Korean child would never address an unrelated adult in banmal just because they "feel comfortable" with them. Ever.

Again, this is not our culture.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:55 am Post subject:

mateomiguel wrote:

I specifically do not want any of my students to use the respectful kind of Korean with me, because the whole absolute-respect-for-authority idea that is behind that whole act is repulsive to me. Also it gets in the way of learning. The only way to be an effective teacher of language is to throw all that crap out so it doesn't get in the way of conversation learning.

You're right.
You're paid to be an english sounding board while at the school, so it is good to be approachable with the students. I couldn't be a stuck-up cold fish, I love my students too much. The warm and friendly kids is one of the things that has kept me sane.
Of course everyone has their own required level of respect, I insist on being called "John-teacher" or John-sonsengnim". Being called "Mr. (insert last name here) doesn't suit me because my surname is difficult to pronounce and write properly even for native english speakers let alone koreans.

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:00 am Post subject:

Junior wrote:

mateomiguel wrote:

I spend my entire lunch period everyday chatting with my boys about who has a new girlfriend, who's girlfriend broke up with them, who is 바람둥이... my students feel very comfortable conversing with me. About all sorts of things.

And those students who come and chat away about this and that would never greet me with 안녕. Why? Because they like me and don't have any desire to try to make a fool out of me in front of the other students by addressing me in banmal.

detourne_me

Joined: 26 May 2006

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:31 am Post subject:

I'm no Picasso wrote:

I'm sorry but you're wrong. I just got off the phone with my girlfriend, who is a Korean middle school English teacher. She told me that it's acceptable in some instances, such as now, when she has to stay after school with them making sure they study, because there are no hakwons in the area.
You are not an authority figure on Korean culture or on this website.
Please stop mini-modding in threads and do us all a favour and get over yourself.

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:41 am Post subject:

detourne_me wrote:

I'm no Picasso wrote:

I may have misspoken saying not ever, then. It was my understanding that such things were not done. If that's the case, I apologize. But the point stands that when a student addresses you through the course of the normal school day in banmal, they are being disrespectful. Right? How often do you spend time after school alone with students you are close to?

What did your girlfriend say about students greeting her with 안녕?

I'm not an authority on much of anything. let alone Korean culture. But if my telling you that you're wrong makes me stuck up, then what does that make you, since you told me I was wrong first? Just curious....

detourne_me

Joined: 26 May 2006

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:51 am Post subject:

Yes in some instances where the relationship isn't a total power struggle like during field trips or afterschool activities it is acceptable. please reread the entire thread before you start pointing fingers at who said "You're wrong" first. 초딩

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:53 am Post subject:

detourne_me wrote:

Yes in some instances where the relationship isn't a total power struggle like during field trips or afterschool activities it is acceptable.

please reread the entire thread before you start pointing fingers at who said "You're wrong" first.
초딩

See the above edits. Were we talking about after school and field trips? Is that the case when students say 안녕 to the foreign teachers?

b-class rambler

Joined: 25 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:12 am Post subject:

I'm no Picasso wrote:

That having been said, I work at a middle school. I'm willing to grant a bit more leniency for younger kids, as I've had no experience with them anyway. My students, at any rate, know the score.

I was going to suggest that your overlooking (a couple of posts back) of the first scenario I mentioned earlier was more to do with its inconvenience to your argument than any limited likelihood of it happening. However, in the light of the above, I'll grant you that it WOULD be more unlikely in a middle or high school. It's a scenario that DOES occur and I have witnessed it, but yes, that has been only in elementary. I stand by what I said earlier that the reasons for it, in elementary school at least, are as likely to be the ones I and steveinincheon mentioned earlier as intentional disrespect.

Fair enough that MS/HS is quite different.

I'm no Picasso wrote:

I agree that it's not particularly difficult to tell if a student has crossed the respect/disrespect line. But people only making that judgment based on whether the student says 안녕 or 안녕 하세요 to them are IMO probably getting the judgment wrong quite a few times - wrong BOTH ways.

Anyway, I have to admit I'm surprised how much some people working as native teachers actually appear to tolerate students conversing with them in Korean. I'll admit to making a very occasional exception, but as far as I'm concerned students address me in English, or at least try to, and I'm quite confident in the belief that my fairly strict adherence to that is a significant factor in lessons going well and kids behaving with me as I would want them to. In fairness, that's only MY school and others are obviously in totally different situations where they work so, whilst surprised, I'm not criticising those other people.

I'm no Picasso

Joined: 28 Oct 2008

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:23 am Post subject:

b-class rambler wrote:

I'm no Picasso wrote:

That having been said, I work at a middle school. I'm willing to grant a bit more leniency for younger kids, as I've had no experience with them anyway. My students, at any rate, know the score.

I'm no Picasso wrote:

Conversing with the students in Korean and having them speak Korean to you are two different things though. If you've somehow managed to find a way to make them stop speaking to you in Korean, please do share it.

I sort of make allowances with Korean, based on level. My Korean is nowhere good enough to actually answer the students comprehensively in Korean, anyway. If they are a higher level class, and I know they can get their point across in English, I will pretend not to understand them until they say it in English.

However, I'm not in the best neighborhood and I've got a lot of kids that have never stepped foot in a hagwon. They don't have a clue what's going on most of the time, and my class can be really frustrating for them. In those cases, when they're asking a legitimate question, and I know they simply can't come up with the English to ask it, I will repeat the question back to them in English and then answer it. I don't see the point in further frustrating them by pretending I don't understand, when they are actually showing an interest in doing the assignment in the first place. Maybe it's not the right thing to do, but I don't have the heart to just ignore them...

In sort of a reverse of the original point of this thread though, has anyone else had lower level students tack on polite Korean endings when speaking English? It's just about the cutest thing I've ever witnessed....

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