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America to end HIV entry ban
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject:

Quote:

the locals are behaving in a way that promotes its spread and doing little to limit it

Doesn't that mean that the definition of "easy to transmit" should include not just a biological definition but a behavioral one. The disease IS easily transmitted due to human behavior.

Quote:

we can put ourselves at 0% risk if we care to.

But we don't care to. People with AIDS continue to engage in behaviors that risk transmission.

Quote:

HIV spreads as well as it does primarily because of people who don't realize they have it

Sounds like all the more reason to have testing to me. And if you have it- quarantine. Yeah, that choice to have unprotected sex/shoot up= you lose.

Quote:

And the big picture is a few quarantines isn't going to seriously dent the number of HIV infections in our country

It would if every single person with AIDS was rounded up and thrown in quarantine. I guarantee if you did that, (allowing for people that slipped through the cracks) in 20 years the numbers would be SIGNIFICANTLY less. In the meantime the people in quarantine would have plenty of motivation (and provided resources in my plan) to research the disease and attempt to develop a cure. Or they may just persist in risky behaviors and not even bother to try to save themselves.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject:

Triban wrote:

Fox wrote:

we can put ourselves at 0% risk if we care to.

See above post, unless you aren't trying to kiss anyone/give CPR to a dying man/help someone who is bleeding out/pick up any kind of refuse to help the world become a better place/you get the picture.

Yup. Complete ignorance about AIDS transmission in this post.

ropebreezy

Joined: 27 Aug 2009

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject:

I'm gonna have to side with quarantine. You have to look at this as a cost-benefit analysis. What are the benefits to letting AIDS infected people in? Being politically correct? I see no other benefit besides perhaps letting in highly educated people who will significantly benefit our society. The cost is your letting AIDS infected people in. Some of those people will spread the disease. This increases the AIDS infected pool in America, which further proliferates the disease. Which is essentially saying you are literally killing people. I realize there are many AIDS patients who are reponsible people and would never knowlingly infect another person, but this doesn't make up for the fact that some are not responsible and will in fact infect others for whatever behavioral reasons. The only logical policy is to keep the ban, however "bigoted" or "prejudice" that might seem to the hyper-emotional crowd.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject:

Triban wrote:

Fox wrote:

Outside of unprotected sex and needle sharing this deadly disease is barely contagious at all.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be the guy who was a part of the "barely".

I can sympathize with your desire to avoid being in that inestimably tiny minority. I wouldn't be willing to support a quarantine to indulge your desire, though.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

the locals are behaving in a way that promotes its spread and doing little to limit it

Doesn't that mean that the definition of "easy to transmit" should include not just a biological definition but a behavioral one.

No, it shouldn't. Why? Because in many parts of the world, the vast majority of the population isn't at risk, even in the presence of the infected.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

we can put ourselves at 0% risk if we care to.

But we don't care to.

Tough luck then. I'm not going to support a quarantine because people don't care to take basic precautions.

Steelrails wrote:

People with AIDS continue to engage in behaviors that risk transmission.

You keep making blanket statements like this. Do you have any statistics at all about the % of people who, after becoming aware of their infection, remain sexually active?

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

HIV spreads as well as it does primarily because of people who don't realize they have it

Sounds like all the more reason to have testing to me.

Testing sounds great.

Steelrails wrote:

And if you have it- quarantine.

No thanks.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

And the big picture is a few quarantines isn't going to seriously dent the number of HIV infections in our country

It would if every single person with AIDS was rounded up and thrown in quarantine.

I'm sorry, but I don't want this to happen. If you want to be safe from AIDS, protect yourself. I don't want the government rounding up people over something as easily avoidable as HIV.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject:

ropebreezy wrote:

I'm gonna have to side with quarantine. You have to look at this as a cost-benefit analysis. What are the benefits to letting AIDS infected people in? Being politically correct? I see no other benefit besides perhaps letting in highly educated people who will significantly benefit our society.

If someone isn't worth having in the country despite having HIV, I'm not sure they'd be worth having in the country even without HIV.

ropebreezy wrote:

I realize there are many AIDS patients who are reponsible people and would never knowlingly infect another person, but this doesn't make up for the fact that some are not responsible and will in fact infect others for whatever behavioral reasons.

I realize there are many human beings who are responsible people and would never knowingly murder another person, but this doesn't make up for the fact that some are not responsible and will in fact murder others for whatever behavioral reasons.

Classifying an entire population as a menace because of the actions of a subset of that population is rarely just.

ropebreezy

Joined: 27 Aug 2009

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:52 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

ropebreezy wrote:

If someone isn't worth having in the country despite having HIV, I'm not sure they'd be worth having in the country even without HIV.

I don't know what you're trying to convey here.

Fox wrote:

ropebreezy wrote:

This is a poor counter-example. Sexual intercourse is a natural human tendency performed countless times throughout a person's lifetime, whereas murder is a rarity among most human populations. It is easier to have sex with someone and think "it's ok I won't give them AIDS" than to chop someone's head off, for instance.

You can argue that knowlingly having sex with someone while you know you have AIDS is murder but let's be honest, that tendency is way easier to follow though with than intentional murder.

Irrespective of all that, this needs repeating: there would be more cases of AIDS in the United States due to the ban being lifted.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject:

ropebreezy wrote:

Fox wrote:

ropebreezy wrote:

If someone isn't worth having in the country despite having HIV, I'm not sure they'd be worth having in the country even without HIV.

I don't know what you're trying to convey here.

Then maybe someone who does will respond for you.

ropebreezy wrote:

Fox wrote:

ropebreezy wrote:

This is a poor counter-example. Sexual intercourse is a natural human tendency performed countless times throughout a person's lifetime, whereas murder is a rarity among most human populations.

Sexualy intercourse is a natural human tendency; sexual intercourse when you know it will inflict someone with a fatal disease is not. In fact, sexual intercourse when you know it will inflict someone with a fatal disease is in essence murder. So no, it's not a poor comparison at all.

ropebreezy wrote:

You can argue that knowlingly having sex with someone while you know you have AIDS is murder but let's be honest, that tendency is way easier to follow though with than intentional murder.

I don't care about what you think is easier or not. You've never been in that situation, and you've got an agenda, so I'm not about to take your word for it regarding what HIV patients feel on this matter.

ropebreezy wrote:

Irrespective of all that, this needs repeating: there would be more cases of AIDS in the United States due to the ban being lifted.

No kidding? As soon as you admit even one person with HIV, you've got more cases of AIDS in the United States, just by virtue of that person alone. That doesn't justify quarantine; quarantine should be limited to involuntarily infectious diseases. If the person can, through their own choices behavior, avoid infecting others, they should be allowed to live normally until or unless they begin behaving criminally. You know, just like any other potential crime a person can commit?

If you don't want to get AIDS, don't have unprotected sex with strangers, and don't share needles. Avoid those things, and it's almost impossible to contract. Given I'm sure you and the other pro-quarantine folks here do in fact avoid those risky behaviors, you've got nothing to worry about.

Triban

Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:51 am Post subject:

I don't think that people are naturally good, I've expressed this before. There are good people, bad people, and so-so people; more so with the latter types. I don't want to risk it. I'm not saying quarantine per se, just don't let them in if they have a deadly disease because I don't want my country infected. Sorry if you feel the need to be more PC or hyper-sensitive, but that's just the way it should be; protect the greater population.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:45 am Post subject:

Triban wrote:

I don't think that people are naturally good, I've expressed this before. There are good people, bad people, and so-so people; more so with the latter types. I don't want to risk it.

There are people who feel the same way about people accused of sex crimes, and the resulting policies have been horrific and more of a problem than the problem they are meant to solve.

Triban wrote:

Sorry if you feel the need to be more PC or hyper-sensitive, but that's just the way it should be; protect the greater population.

Really dangerous principle. Doing things for the good of the majority is a good thing, but not when it screws the minority. Anything that seeks to treat these individuals like criminals is something I'm against, and that's exactly what your system does.

Triban

Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Triban wrote:

I don't think that people are naturally good, I've expressed this before. There are good people, bad people, and so-so people; more so with the latter types. I don't want to risk it.

There are people who feel the same way about people accused of sex crimes, and the resulting policies have been horrific and more of a problem than the problem they are meant to solve.

Triban wrote:

Sorry if you feel the need to be more PC or hyper-sensitive, but that's just the way it should be; protect the greater population.

Regardless, we should be anti-immigration right now ANYWAY, since our economy is struggling and 18% of the total population is without a steady job.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject:

Triban wrote:

Fox wrote:

Triban wrote:

I don't think that people are naturally good, I've expressed this before. There are good people, bad people, and so-so people; more so with the latter types. I don't want to risk it.

There are people who feel the same way about people accused of sex crimes, and the resulting policies have been horrific and more of a problem than the problem they are meant to solve.

Triban wrote:

Sorry if you feel the need to be more PC or hyper-sensitive, but that's just the way it should be; protect the greater population.

Regardless, we should be anti-immigration right now ANYWAY, since our economy is struggling and 18% of the total population is without a steady job.

If you want to make some sort of anti-immigration argument in general, that's entirely different. Trying to keep people out by essentially declaring them criminals (which is claiming saying they'd knowingly spread HIV really is: declaring them criminals) without any evidence is unreasonable. Saying we should stop allowing immigrants in general is something else entirely.

Of course, I'd say that we should always allow at the very least skilled, educated immigrants, and that includes skilled, educated immigrants who happen to have HIV.

seonsengnimble

Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:04 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

we can put ourselves at 0% risk if we care to.

But we don't care to. People with AIDS continue to engage in behaviors that risk transmission.

Quote:

HIV spreads as well as it does primarily because of people who don't realize they have it

Sounds like all the more reason to have testing to me. And if you have it- quarantine. Yeah, that choice to have unprotected sex/shoot up= you lose.

So, you don't care to wear a condemn or use a sterile needle when you inject drugs, and you find it more efficient and convenient to round up everyone who has HIV.

Others who don't care to take the same precautions "lose" and should be locked up.

I don't like to use garbage cans. I don't care to use them for my waste and prefer to toss my garbage on the street. If everyone else did this, the world would be pretty filthy. So, everyone else who chooses to throw garbage on the street should be locked up so that I can throw garbage on the street with no consequences.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:28 am Post subject:

seonsengnimble wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

we can put ourselves at 0% risk if we care to.

But we don't care to. People with AIDS continue to engage in behaviors that risk transmission.

Quote:

HIV spreads as well as it does primarily because of people who don't realize they have it

Sounds like all the more reason to have testing to me. And if you have it- quarantine. Yeah, that choice to have unprotected sex/shoot up= you lose.

Can I ask you, why do you believe that IV drug users and people who don't use protection are rational actors? Why do you believe that once they are diagnosed, they will not engage in behaviors that risk infection of others?

seonsengnimble

Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:32 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

seonsengnimble wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

we can put ourselves at 0% risk if we care to.

But we don't care to. People with AIDS continue to engage in behaviors that risk transmission.

Quote:

HIV spreads as well as it does primarily because of people who don't realize they have it

Sounds like all the more reason to have testing to me. And if you have it- quarantine. Yeah, that choice to have unprotected sex/shoot up= you lose.

As many have said before, there's a difference between putting yourself at risk and deliberately putting others at risk. One is irresponsible, foolish behavior, the other is malicious disregard for others.

I still don't understand how you can believe that you shouldn't have to protect yourself but everyone else who doesn't protect his or herself should be removed from society.

Last edited by seonsengnimble on Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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