|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
|
 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: |
 |
|
again, you are not reading threads....
I already conceded that the Herald is a crappy paper. My argument is simply we don't have any other evidence or account of events. Based on the account we do have, it is perfectly acceptable to call the case horrendous.
And as I have conceded, if we get another account of what happened with new info, I'd be completely willing to change my position. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
(shakes head)
Hopefully some outrage will start over this. Self-Defense rights should never be chipped away at.
EDIT- I heard from my co-teacher that this sort of thing isn't uncommon and that this a standard punishment- the "logic" and I use that term very loosely, being that someone died and that no matter how bad beating is, killing someone is still killing someone. Even more disturbing is that SHE was somewhat indifferent to the whole thing- like "eh, this is just the crap we have to put up with till the older generation drops dead." |
However, this kind of indifference does make me concerned that things will not change so much once the older generation does die off.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Al-Jazeera? |
Believe it or not, Al-Jazeera is an excellent source of news on par with CNN and BBC in terms of quality of coverage and analysis. Honestly, I am not being sarcastic at all when I say this. In fact, I think Al-Jazeera really has become a beacon of light in the Middle East. And they do not just focus on issues affecting the Middle East. They have a wide variety of regular news coverage, documentaries, and debates about issues ranging from strip mining in Appalachia to the brinkmanship of North Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| freethought wrote: |
again, you are not reading threads....
I already conceded that the Herald is a crappy paper. My argument is simply we don't have any other evidence or account of events. Based on the account we do have, it is perfectly acceptable to call the case horrendous.
And as I have conceded, if we get another account of what happened with new info, I'd be completely willing to change my position. |
Oh, I'm reading. You conclude that shoddy journalism from a source known to be faulty, without a splinter of evidence, professional testimony, or legal referencing, is sufficient grounds on which to base an opinion.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Meenam
Joined: 16 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| oh give it a rest already. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mc_jc
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Domestic Violence
Rape
Lack of self-defense
Patriarchy
Male Dominance
So what alot of Koreans and their supporters are saying- it is ok to beat, rape, and belittle your wife because Korean laws favor Korean male dominance over the welfare and sanity of Korean women.
The US and many western countries used to be like that. It changed in the US during WWII when women got jobs in the defense industry while men went off to fight in the war. However, when the men returned, women refused to go back to the role of the model housewife, although there was an attempt in the 1950's to bring women back into the fold. Then came the women empowerment movements that started in the 1960's and culminated in the powersuits of the 1980's with the football-style shoulder pads.
I think many posters understand that Korean judges were only dispensing Korean law.
One of the benchmarks that determines whether a country is 'advanced' or not is how the law is applied to the female members of the population.
For example- a poster spoke about a Korean man raping his foreign spouse and only got a suspended sentence because he simply apologized for his crime. Yet, a Korean woman is sentenced to 3 years in prison for defending herself against an attack by her husband, which resulted in her death.
For most of us here, we grew up in societies where women are given considerably more rights than men- the preferential right to child custody, the victim status during any form of attack, especially rape and so on. In Korea, they try to present an image that they are applying laws regardless of gender- but in our perceptions, they are seen as handing down judgement that seem more male-oriented.
My question is- Is Korea truly as advanced as people claim it to be? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| However, this kind of indifference does make me concerned that things will not change so much once the older generation does die off. |
Don't lose to much hope. Compared to the Vietnam generation our intensity regarding certain issues seems much more indifferent, but are we indifferent? I don't think so. I think it is a similar phenomenon here, the younger generation realizes the impracticability of frequent dramatic change, so instead they are just going to 'bide their time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| If the law in Korea heavily limits the right to self-defence, then it might be the law itself that is questionable rather than the judges who interpret it. This would depend on the amount of lee-way judges are permitted in construing legislation or common law (whichever applies in Korea). I do recall a conversation I had with a senior police officer who stated that the laws on self-defence in Korea are very restrictive and he warned me that had I struck an intruder who was attempting to break into my property with a pole for example, then I would have been in serious trouble. Personally, I think that the sentence in this case appears far too harsh but I am not in possession of all the facts. It's worth noting that in the UK this is also considered a legal grey area. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| shifter2009 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Geckoman wrote: |
| Nemo wrote: |
| She only got three years. That's the injustice. |
Give me a break.
I don't know what country you're from, but in the United States, after a thorough investigation by the police department, no charges would of been filed against her.
) |
You don't know that. We only have her word that her husband was strangling her and holding her head underwater.
Suppose they did a through investigation and found there was no evidence to support her claims? |
The article says nothing about only having her word. It is worded in such a way that them appear to be statements of fact. Far as you know the police did do an investigation. But, hey, play devils advocate for a wife beater. If you decided to look into this out of interest and provided an article providing the other side, I'd say, "kudos." But given the information presented here at present I think that not the side of the fence you want to be standing on. |
"They appear to be statements of fact" you say. Yet when the same paper prints stories about foreigners behaving badly and indeed does state them as fact, you are suddenly on the other side.
The man was alone with his wife. The only side of the story the paper could have got from them, would have been from his wife. And apparently they did (see the quotes).
I am not playing devil's advocate for a wife beater...like I said we don't even know that her claims are true. And you know very well that it would be impossible for me to produce an article showing the other side...he's dead.
As for the police investigation I was simply responding to the other poster and proposed a hypothetical situation which he seemed to not have considered. |
When have I been on the other side? I am drawing a blank right now but if you got an example I'd like to see it.
Yes, it would be possible to show an article. The article doesn't say ALLEGED beatings. It says beatings. Evidence of abuse is pretty easy for police to check. Strangle marks ect consistent with husbands hand for example. Past reports of domestic violence, calls to the police, ect. If in court the police found none of those things it would be put into evidence against her self defense claims. Now, I realize that most of the reporting on this case is probably in Korean and hard to research but to say it's impossible is plain not true. You proposed a hypothetical situation in favor of a wife beater when the little evidence we have given suggests none of what your saying. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Well, in a country where wife-beating is reportely widespread, it's understandable that the judicial system wouldn't want to signal that it's perfectly OK for abused wives to kill their husbands. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| It's worth noting that in the UK this is also considered a legal grey area. |
I can't make any judgment on the harshness or not of the sentence because there's simply too much about what happened that I don't know.
But I do know that similar cases (and outcomes) have happened in the UK. English law allows a defence of self-defence in the case of homicide but allows only that "reasonable force" be used. Obviously, the issue is then what constitutes reasonable force. Was the weapon used the only one that could have reasonably been used by the defendant? Was the defendant's intention only to defend themselves from attack, or was there an intention to kill or a recklessness about that as a possible outcome?
Under English law, it would be feasible that a wife stabbing a husband to death when he attacked her would be allowed the self-defence defence and be found not guilty. But it would depend on the particular and precise facts of the case, and it's also quite feasible that she'd be found to have gone way beyond what was "reasonable" in the circumstances. In that case, she'd be punished MUCH more harshly than in this Korean case, because she'd be guilty of murder, which is a mandatory LIFE sentence.
There is also another approach a defence lawyer might take in this kind of case in the UK. He might advise the defendant to plead not guilty to murder, but guilty to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. (Manslaughter is roughly equivalent to non-culpable homicide in some other jurisdictions.) This is where the defendant doesn't deny intention to kill, but claims that some kind of mentally intolerable situation made them lose control of their senses and resulted in the action they took.
There was once a case of a 16 year old boy who shot his stepparents dead. It was found that he had been bullied and abused appallingly by them for 10 years and was in a helpless mental state as a result. He was found guilty of manslaughter, but set free - under UK law the maximum sentence for that is life, but it's not a mandatory sentence and discretion is allowed right down to a complete discharge. Obviously, the key here is how seriously affected the defendant's mind had been over time. A long bullied helpless wife might have a strong case. But a wife with a habit of fighting and arguing quite a bit herself at her own instigation and who could have done a lot to make the general situation better wouldn't have such a strong case.
English law is very clear that self-defence is not a licence for revenge. It's seen as an important public policy to NOT encourage vigilanteism and not encourage the taking of the law into one's own hands,but with appropriate concession for those who really had absolutely no other option but to do what they did. Knowing what I know of the law in the UK, I don't find this Korean case is necessarily out of the ordinary at all.
I'm happy with English law's general stance on self-defence and the reasons for it, and would therefore not have a problem with Korea having the same stance, which it might do. If other people come from jurisdictions where the law give you a much freer reign to do what you like and go as far as you like once you've been attacked, then I'd disagree with that legal approach being adopted in my country or in Korea, but I could understand the differing perspective of people from those countries allowing that wider self-defence interpretation.
However, everyone has to be mature enough to realise that different places have different situations and make different laws for different reasons and stop being so surprised (a) when something happens that you think wouldn't happen back home and (b) when you don't even know half the facts of the case anyway. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| freethought wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| freethought wrote: |
[.
Moreover, IF a woman is being attacked to the point that was described in the article it would essentially amount to an attempt on her life. I. |
(Capitals are mine)
And that's the thing isn't it? IF. IF. IF.
People are saying there are just too many "IF"S in this case yet to rush to a conclusion. |
I note there was no apology or retraction...
Why would there be? YOU wrote (and I quote) "People on here are defending the beating of wives because they perceive an 'attack on Korea' That says a great deal about K-logic..."
So you start off by talking about the "PEOPLE ON HERE" and suddenly surge into saying that their defense of Korea says a great deal about K-logic.
It sounds perfectly reasonable to assume that you were saying that the people on here defending Korea are Koreans.
I will agree with you on the "IF" (in caps, of course) 'could' be an issue. But we have no 'probable cause' to believe there is an IF. None whatsoever. This "IF" that you speak of and refer to is one pulled out of thin air. Again, present us with another account, but to go on and on to the extent that this has over what has to be deemed fair comment on a story printed in the media, speaks to something else behind this opposition other than the 'maybe, possibly' the article is wrong.
More importantly, I cited the Canadian criminal code definition.
This is Korea...the Canadian criminal code definition is irrelevant.
And as a Canadian if I apply it to the facts we have at our disposal, yes, the decision is outrageous--- to me, as a Canadian. This isn't cultural imperialism. It is simply my opinion as a canadian based on the information I have.
Again different countries have different justice systems. Some of these countries might find OUR justice system outrageous. Jail and a huge fine just for owning an unregistered gun?
Should the information change, I would be willing to modify my view/assessment. But I am not going to change my mind based on absolutely groundless conjecture. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| b-class rambler wrote: |
[
However, everyone has to be mature enough to realise that different places have different situations and make different laws for different reasons and stop being so surprised (a) when something happens that you think wouldn't happen back home and (b) when you don't even know half the facts of the case anyway. |
This is the best thing said so far. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| What I find most disturbing in this case-- regardless of whether or not excessive force was used--(I do wonder how she got from the bathroom to the kitchen and would like to know how many times she stabbed the guy)... is why are the children are denied the life insurance policy? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| shifter2009 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| shifter2009 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Geckoman wrote: |
| Nemo wrote: |
| She only got three years. That's the injustice. |
Give me a break.
I don't know what country you're from, but in the United States, after a thorough investigation by the police department, no charges would of been filed against her.
) |
You don't know that. We only have her word that her husband was strangling her and holding her head underwater.
Suppose they did a through investigation and found there was no evidence to support her claims? |
The article says nothing about only having her word. It is worded in such a way that them appear to be statements of fact. Far as you know the police did do an investigation. But, hey, play devils advocate for a wife beater. If you decided to look into this out of interest and provided an article providing the other side, I'd say, "kudos." But given the information presented here at present I think that not the side of the fence you want to be standing on. |
"They appear to be statements of fact" you say. Yet when the same paper prints stories about foreigners behaving badly and indeed does state them as fact, you are suddenly on the other side.
The man was alone with his wife. The only side of the story the paper could have got from them, would have been from his wife. And apparently they did (see the quotes).
I am not playing devil's advocate for a wife beater...like I said we don't even know that her claims are true. And you know very well that it would be impossible for me to produce an article showing the other side...he's dead.
As for the police investigation I was simply responding to the other poster and proposed a hypothetical situation which he seemed to not have considered. |
When have I been on the other side? I am drawing a blank right now but if you got an example I'd like to see it.
You mean to tell me that every time the Herald or Times writes a story about how foreign teachers are drug using freaks you're heading the cheerleading section for them? I would have thought you were on the other side (the FT's side). My bad. I apologize for that assumption.
Yes, it would be possible to show an article. The article doesn't say ALLEGED beatings. It says beatings. Evidence of abuse is pretty easy for police to check. Strangle marks ect consistent with husbands hand for example. Past reports of domestic violence, calls to the police, ect. If in court the police found none of those things it would be put into evidence against her self defense claims. Now, I realize that most of the reporting on this case is probably in Korean and hard to research but to say it's impossible is plain not true. You proposed a hypothetical situation in favor of a wife beater when the little evidence we have given suggests none of what your saying. |
You asked for the other side. Given that the man is dead and that the ONLY WITNESS is the woman...what other side is there?
As for police checking come on now...this is Korea not CSI Korea. We've all heard of the shoddy work they do...which goes double when foreigners are involved. I was involved in a traffic accident with a Korean once (his fault). When the police arrived they didn't bother even checking...they automatically assumed I was at fault and told me to pay blood money. Fortunately for me a couple of bystanders stepped up and told the cops that the other guy was in the wrong...he still got to leave without paying a cent.
Ever since then I've had a low opinion of the "police work" done here. And nothing much has happened much since then to prove me wrong. Remember that girl who got sexually assaulted in the elevator? The police had to be shamed into doing some work and finding the guy.
http://occidentalism.org/?p=854 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="TheUrbanMyth"][quote="shifter2009"][quote="TheUrbanMyth"][quote="shifter2009"]
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Geckoman wrote: |
| Nemo wrote: |
| She only got three years. That's the injustice. |
When have I been on the other side? I am drawing a blank right now but if you got an example I'd like to see it.
You mean to tell me that every time the Herald or Times writes a story about how foreign teachers are drug using freaks you're heading the cheerleading section for them? I would have thought you were on the other side (the FT's side). My bad. I apologize for that assumption.
Yes, it would be possible to show an article. The article doesn't say ALLEGED beatings. It says beatings. Evidence of abuse is pretty easy for police to check. Strangle marks ect consistent with husbands hand for example. Past reports of domestic violence, calls to the police, ect. If in court the police found none of those things it would be put into evidence against her self defense claims. Now, I realize that most of the reporting on this case is probably in Korean and hard to research but to say it's impossible is plain not true. You proposed a hypothetical situation in favor of a wife beater when the little evidence we have given suggests none of what your saying. |
You asked for the other side. Given that the man is dead and that the ONLY WITNESS is the woman...what other side is there?
As for police checking come on now...this is Korea not CSI Korea. We've all heard of the shoddy work they do...which goes double when foreigners are involved. I was involved in a traffic accident with a Korean once (his fault). When the police arrived they didn't bother even checking...they automatically assumed I was at fault and told me to pay blood money. Fortunately for me a couple of bystanders stepped up and told the cops that the other guy was in the wrong...he still got to leave without paying a cent.
Ever since then I've had a low opinion of the "police work" done here. And nothing much has happened much since then to prove me wrong. Remember that girl who got sexually assaulted in the elevator? The police had to be shamed into doing some work and finding the guy.
http://occidentalism.org/?p=854 |
Well, I more opposed to the ad hominem nature of the statement. I generally look at those articles with detached amusement. If I was one of the guys posting them here every day I'd think it was a fairer point.
I also don't think the less than stellar care they show to foreigners is really relevant. Unless I missed something this was Korean on Korean. (I'm not going to go double check so if I am wrong feel free to correct me) I'm not disagreeing with you on that point witnessing a few cases resembling what your talking about but that is a different argument.
The abuse here is strangling and attempted drowning, the evidence for which you don't need David Curusso (sp?) to find. Bruising would be fairly evident if it was at all serious. If anything the shoddy police work here would work against the woman wouldn't it as thing seem to clearly slant towards the males point of view in most of these cases? Long and short of it is, without some sort of outside info apart from what we got here I just don't see defending the husband in this case. Sure, you can say it's their culture and their rules but in my opinion I think the rule should be that if a husband gets himself killed attempt to abuse his wife, that's just self defense. Let her walk. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
