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justagirl
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Cheonan/Portland
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 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:06 pm Post subject: Korean Government Encouraging More Children |
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I heard that the government wants Korean couples to have 3 or more children. If you have 3 kids, you get tax breaks, the child gets to go to kindergarten at the gov.'s expense and a few other incentives as well.
Why? Because they are worried about the declining birth rate in Korea.  They really think it's a serious problem and that they should pop out more babies.
Does anyone else think this is insane? Anyone else think that it'd be nice to have a few less people in Korea, or is it truly only the foreigners that realize this? |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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It's true... my director has 3 daughters (you gotta feel bad for the dad living with 4 women  ), and she gets tax breaks and free education for the third I believe. Plus the youngest gets spoiled rotten.
Maybe it's a government ploy to restore "traditional" values and get them uppity women out of the workplace and back home, barefoot and pregnant, where they belong? |
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Crois
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: You could be next so watch out.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe the ESL/EFL Mafia said that numbers are falling in the Hagwons so they said people must have more babies. Hey i aint complaining. More jobs for me. But then again more little horrors running around. |
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peppergirl
Joined: 07 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| If Korean couples continue to have only 1.17 (or something like that) kids, there won't be enough working people to support the older population. Same is happening in Europe, Japan, but in Korea the decline in births has been the fastest. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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The birthrate is actually dropping very sharply here. In 2000 there were 630,000 newborns; in 2002 there were 495,000. Yes I think Korea's population is too big, but if the birthrate declines very rapidly it will create a significant imbalance between the working and non-working population, as peppergirl said.
I think the best way the government could boost the birth rate would be to abolish the College Scholastic Aptitude Test (CSAT), the university entrance exam. Base university entrance on high school grades, same as in Canada. The cost of sending kids to cram schools to prepare for this test is now so high that it's discouraging a lot of young couples from having children. Which is ridiculous. |
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tsgarp
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Korean Government Encouraging More Children |
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| justagirl wrote: |
I heard that the government wants Korean couples to have 3 or more children. If you have 3 kids, you get tax breaks, the child gets to go to kindergarten at the gov.'s expense and a few other incentives as well.
Why? Because they are worried about the declining birth rate in Korea. They really think it's a serious problem and that they should pop out more babies.
Does anyone else think this is insane? Anyone else think that it'd be nice to have a few less people in Korea, or is it truly only the foreigners that realize this? |
It must be hard to get through life with zero critical thinking skills. Haven't you ever heard of graying societies? A population reduction is desirable but a population crash leads to a disaster. Get it? |
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maxxx_power
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Location: BWAHAHAHAHA! I'M FREE!!!!!!!
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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2.1 children per family is a sustainable rate, meaning that there is 0 population growth.
Japan and Italy are two major countries facing a major population crash within the next fifty years.
Some food for thought I guess. |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| peppergirl wrote: |
| If Korean couples continue to have only 1.17 (or something like that) kids, there won't be enough working people to support the older population. Same is happening in Europe, Japan, but in Korea the decline in births has been the fastest. |
The solution then would be to put more emphasis on collecting a reasonable amount of personal income taxes and bringing in foreign workers. This is not a new problem.
Have you asked any Korean people about this? I know a computer programmer who works for Samsung and only pays 3% income tax on 48 million won a year. Makes no sense. Many people pay less than 3%.
Support the older generation? hmmm
It looks to me like older people do most of the work in Korea and there are plenty of younger people to fill the service slots and definitely a lot of hungry Filipinos just waiting for that flight to Seoul.
Having more children is ridiculous. There are plenty of foreigners in this region willing to work in Korea. Korea has to change it's attititde about providing foreigners a decent wage and living in this country. This is a rich country and it's time to share the wealth.
More children....typical Korean stupidity. |
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shevek
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| HardyandTiny wrote: |
there are plenty of younger people to fill the service slots and definitely a lot of hungry Filipinos just waiting for that flight to Seoul.
Having more children is ridiculous. There are plenty of foreigners in this region willing to work in Korea. Korea has to change it's attititde about providing foreigners a decent wage and living in this country. This is a rich country and it's time to share the wealth. |
As some other posters mentioned, this is a similar problem to the one most developed nations are facing. And it's not just a matter of bringing in Filipinos or Nigerians or any other immigrant group. If you look at the problems these developed countries identify, they almost always include the lack of integration that the immigrant groups have with traditional society.
I spent a semester in the Netherlands, a country that's extremely tolerant by a lot of standards. The assimilation of immigrants brought in to fill labor shortages or for who've come for other reasons is a huge issue that a lot of Dutch feel really strongly and negatively about. I live in San Diego where many people have the same issues with Mexican immigrants. People freak out at the thought of their country's culture being threatened by scary outside influences.
I know next to nothing about Filipino culture and what Koreans think of them living in Korea. But considering how proud many Koreans are of their cultural and genetic heritage, it seems likely that they as a group like lots of other ethnic groups will continue to strongly prefer Korean birth rates accelerated to keep jobs filled over allowing more immigrants. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| HardyandTiny wrote: |
The solution then would be to put more emphasis on collecting a reasonable amount of personal income taxes and bringing in foreign workers. This is not a new problem.
Have you asked any Korean people about this? I know a computer programmer who works for Samsung and only pays 3% income tax on 48 million won a year. Makes no sense. Many people pay less than 3%. |
Korean's also pay amongst the highest consumption taxes in the world, ranging from an 11.1% sales tax on everything to recurring car taxes to punishingly high taxes on fuel and second residential properties, just for example. It's actually a model floated by many as making the tax system more fair as it taxes people who spend rather than those who earn.
| Quote: |
Support the older generation? hmmm
It looks to me like older people do most of the work in Korea and there are plenty of younger people to fill the service slots and definitely a lot of hungry Filipinos just waiting for that flight to Seoul.
Having more children is ridiculous. There are plenty of foreigners in this region willing to work in Korea. Korea has to change it's attititde about providing foreigners a decent wage and living in this country. This is a rich country and it's time to share the wealth. |
Having a country overly dependant on foreign workers who are focused on working simply to send money outside the country actually retards the local economy. Ranging from reinvestment options from bank savings to others to direct spending to investments in commercial entities down the road, all are not to be had the same currency been given to a local worker. The end result is nearly the same in that the social safety net cannot be supported by the taxation on the economy and a heavy inflation risk.
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| More children....typical Korean stupidity. |
I fail to see why you need to start casting insults when you were clearly quite ignorant of the inner workings of this issue. Plus we're talking about a population that is contracting by nearly 50% in a single generation while at the same time people are living a third longer after retirement.
In math, that means I used to have $100 to by a $100 item, but soon my $100 will be $50 and that $100 item will become $130. The gap went from none to a difference of 160% between revenue and cost. That's a hell of a gap to close.
Pro-tip: More children is the answer. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Good points, but neither is merely increasing the birth rate a fail-safe solution. In order for the retired population to be supported in the style to which they've become accustomed, members of the younger generation must have well-paying jobs in sufficient numbers lest too many of them also burden the system. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Good points, but neither is merely increasing the birth rate a fail-safe solution. In order for the retired population to be supported in the style to which they've become accustomed, members of the younger generation must have well-paying jobs in sufficient numbers lest too many of them also burden the system. |
Very true, and unfortunately many of them are now experiencing a "jobless recovery." |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| shevek wrote: |
| HardyandTiny wrote: |
there are plenty of younger people to fill the service slots and definitely a lot of hungry Filipinos just waiting for that flight to Seoul.
Having more children is ridiculous. There are plenty of foreigners in this region willing to work in Korea. Korea has to change it's attititde about providing foreigners a decent wage and living in this country. This is a rich country and it's time to share the wealth. |
As some other posters mentioned, this is a similar problem to the one most developed nations are facing. And it's not just a matter of bringing in Filipinos or Nigerians or any other immigrant group. If you look at the problems these developed countries identify, they almost always include the lack of integration that the immigrant groups have with traditional society.
I spent a semester in the Netherlands, a country that's extremely tolerant by a lot of standards. The assimilation of immigrants brought in to fill labor shortages or for who've come for other reasons is a huge issue that a lot of Dutch feel really strongly and negatively about. I live in San Diego where many people have the same issues with Mexican immigrants. People freak out at the thought of their country's culture being threatened by scary outside influences.
I know next to nothing about Filipino culture and what Koreans think of them living in Korea. But considering how proud many Koreans are of their cultural and genetic heritage, it seems likely that they as a group like lots of other ethnic groups will continue to strongly prefer Korean birth rates accelerated to keep jobs filled over allowing more immigrants. |
You can't create new workers by having more Korean children. The new generation of Koreans refuse to work unless it's absolutely necessary. Can you imagine what it will be like in twenty five years from now? Oh yeah, maybe like Japan in the 90s when so many of the fast food places HAD to hire mentally handicapped people. God bless em and good for them, but they were not there out of the goodness of the Japanese heart, it's just that no one else would take the "low class" job.
Haven't you seen the old ajummas working on construction sites? These young Korean guys are afraid to pick up a hammer. Do you really think a new younger generation will emerge to replace the over-the hill gang that builds everything here? A new set of labor laws allowing construction workers to form unions that pay their workers at least 25,000 won an hour? A minimum wage law that allows two full time Korean workers to work as bartenders and actually survive? Is everyone going to work for Samsung and own an apartment?
Allow immigrants to enter legally, diversify the population and slowly fill the lower paying positions, and of course eventually those new immigrants begin to move up the social ladder. You can't rely on typical Koreans to pop out three kids. It will never happen, it's just too expensive. Free kindergarten? What is that a joke? Free kindergarten woo-hoo!
People in San Diego have issues with Mexican immigrants? Screw those people. Why don't they apply for the jobs that the Mexicans are taking?
Why can't Mexicans enter the USA and take jobs? The work is there, right?. Hell, what culture? The name of the place is SAN DIEGO. |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
Korean's also pay amongst the highest consumption taxes in the world, ranging from an 11.1% sales tax on everything to recurring car taxes to punishingly high taxes on fuel and second residential properties, just for example. It's actually a model floated by many as making the tax system more fair as it taxes people who spend rather than those who earn. |
I bought an apartment, the sales tax was 6.5%. I own a car, I don't even remember paying a tax when I bought it. I think there was a 50,000 won fee for registration. The cost of gasoline is high, that is true. However my home utility costs are extremely low.
| Gord wrote: |
| Having a country overly dependant on foreign workers who are focused on working simply to send money outside the country actually retards the local economy. Ranging from reinvestment options from bank savings to others to direct spending to investments in commercial entities down the road, all are not to be had the same currency been given to a local worker. The end result is nearly the same in that the social safety net cannot be supported by the taxation on the economy and a heavy inflation risk. |
"overly dependant", "simply sending money home"..this is negative thinking. Bring people in as needed, give them the option for citizenship, provide schools for foreingers, create fair labor laws, etc.. this becomes their home.
| Gord wrote: |
| I fail to see why you need to start casting insults when you were clearly quite ignorant of the inner workings of this issue. Plus we're talking about a population that is contracting by nearly 50% in a single generation while at the same time people are living a third longer after retirement.. |
Yeah the insult was wrong.
But you haven't made anything clear. You have twisted the topic to suit your argument. What is this about sending money home and overly dependant?
Korea needs a fundamental change its '"inner workings" are obviously not working if it's asking it's people to have more children when it's one of the most densely populated countries in the world.
| Gord wrote: |
| Pro-tip: More children is the answer. |
What the hell are children going to do? You want another even bigger generation of spoiled brats. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| HardyandTiny wrote: |
| I bought an apartment, the sales tax was 6.5%. I own a car, I don't even remember paying a tax when I bought it. I think there was a 50,000 won fee for registration. The cost of gasoline is high, that is true. However my home utility costs are extremely low. |
Sales tax on buying an apartment is a hell of a tax absent in most countries. Car fees are paid every year. And there is a high tax rate in all your utilities.
| Quote: |
| "overly dependant", "simply sending money home"..this is negative thinking. Bring people in as needed, give them the option for citizenship, provide schools for foreingers, create fair labor laws, etc.. this becomes their home. |
If people become citizens, then they aren't foreign workers which moves away from the discussion of using foreign workers. But since we're talking about foreign workers, the issues of "being overly dependant" and "shipping money abroad" are serious issues when they are complimentary.
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Yeah the insult was wrong.
But you haven't made anything clear. You have twisted the topic to suit your argument. What is this about sending money home and overly dependant? |
What was not clear? If you want to start spouting up about your opinion in economics and what needs to be done to fix them, then you should at least have a very basic understanding of how economies work. I've dumbed the language down to damn near grade school level and I really can't go any lower. If you honestly don't understand, it might be wise to start reading up on economics. Seriously. I've provided all the answers.
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| Korea needs a fundamental change its '"inner workings" are obviously not working if it's asking it's people to have more children when it's one of the most densely populated countries in the world. |
The problem is that the population is contracting by 50% in a generation while at the same time the social safety net has to deal with an increase in people who are all living longer.
No one is saying that Korea should have a population explosion, but rather a population level that stays equal or only contracts slightly. When a population contracts heavily and is dependant on a the notion that it should be growing, particuarly with social safety nets with financing based on this, having a contraction of 50% is detramental. See the math example I've already provided in my last posting.
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| What the hell are children going to do? You want another even bigger generation of spoiled brats. |
Your opinion on the behavior of children has nothing to do with the economic discussion at hand. |
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