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VFRinterceptor
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: I got terminated...take the letter of transfer or fight it? |
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I would like to preface this post by asking you guys for serious and informed responses. Please read the entire post before posting a reply. This is a very serious matter for me, so I hope that your respect toward that reflects in your response.
As some of you might have read in some of my previous posts, I have been working in a crapwon for the past 8 months. 2 weeks ago I was handed my 30 day termination notice. I consulted a labor law firm, I was advised that I had a case.
Quick background on my director. She's a local politician within Dajeon city. My previous coworker who took his case to the MOL said that after a victorious 1st meeting with the MOL, he was called in and noticed a shift in the attitude of the MOL representatives. He was also threatened with a lawsuit amounting 10mil KRW by the school against him for 'tarnishing the schools good name'...
I detailed the story on this thread: http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=170020
Now I know the political sway could be smoke and mirrors and the threat of a lawsuit could be a bluff, but is it worth the risk?
My options (feel free to revise)
1. Accept their letter of transfer, get a seamless transition to a new school without a visa run (?). With the new school not paying visa/airfare costs, the opportunity to negotiate a higher salary is present.
2. All of the same included in option 1, but after settling at new school, take case to MOL. The only problem here would be if in light of transferring, it gives them an argument with the MOL and the opportunity for them to call my new school and put in a 'bad word'.
3. Fight the case, but with my directors political sway and the threat of a counter-sue, it becomes more risky.
Last edited by VFRinterceptor on Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| As far as I know (don't take this as final) option 2 is not an option; if you take the letter and transfer, you can't do anything to the first school. That only leaves options 1 and 3. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Re: I got terminated...take the letter of transfer or fight |
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| VFRinterceptor wrote: |
I would like to preface this post by asking you guys for serious and informed responses. Please read the entire post before posting a reply. This is a very serious matter for me, so I hope that your respect toward that reflects in your response.
As some of you might have read in some of my previous posts, I have been working in a crapwon for the past 8 months. 2 weeks ago I was handed my 30 day termination notice. I consulted a labor law firm, I was advised that I had a case.
Quick background on my director. She's a local politician within Dajeon city. My previous coworker who took his case to the MOL said that after a victorious 1st meeting with the MOL, he was called in and noticed a shift in the attitude of the MOL representatives. He was also threatened with a lawsuit amounting 10mil KRW by the school against him for 'tarnishing the schools good name'...
Now I know the political sway could be smoke and mirrors and the threat of a lawsuit could be a bluff, but is it worth the risk?
My options (feel free to revise)
1. Accept their letter of transfer, get a seamless transition to a new school without a visa run (?). With the new school not paying visa/airfare costs, the opportunity to negotiate a higher salary is present.
2. All of the same included in option 1, but after settling at new school, take case to MOL. The only problem here would be if in light of transferring, it gives them an argument with the MOL and the opportunity for them to call my new school and put in a 'bad word'.
3. Fight the case, but with my directors political sway and the threat of a counter-sue, it becomes more risky. |
Before anyone gives you advice on which option you should pursue, I think there are several things that should be mentioned by you.
(A) Aside from the severance money that you will not get, does the hagwon owner owe you any money?
(B) Do you still want to work in Korea?
If your answers to A and B are no and yes respectively, then option 1 will make the most sense. On the other hand, if your answers are yes and no respectively, then option 3 is worth considering. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
| As far as I know (don't take this as final) option 2 is not an option; if you take the letter and transfer, you can't do anything to the first school. That only leaves options 1 and 3. |
Yes, I completely agree with you on that point. |
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VFRinterceptor
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: Re: I got terminated...take the letter of transfer or fight |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
Before anyone gives you advice on which option you should pursue, I think there are several things that should be mentioned by you.
(A) Aside from the severance money that you will not get, does the hagwon owner owe you any money?
(B) Do you still want to work in Korea?
If your answers to A and B are no and yes respectively, then option 1 will make the most sense. On the other hand, if your answers are yes and no respectively, then option 3 is worth considering. |
They don't owe me any money but I still want to work in Korea. If that's the case, then why do you say option 1 makes the most sense? |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: Re: I got terminated...take the letter of transfer or fight |
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| VFRinterceptor wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
Before anyone gives you advice on which option you should pursue, I think there are several things that should be mentioned by you.
(A) Aside from the severance money that you will not get, does the hagwon owner owe you any money?
(B) Do you still want to work in Korea?
If your answers to A and B are no and yes respectively, then option 1 will make the most sense. On the other hand, if your answers are yes and no respectively, then option 3 is worth considering. |
They don't owe me any money but I still want to work in Korea. If that's the case, then why do you say option 1 makes the most sense? |
While it is unfortunate that you will lose the severance pay over this, in a very perverse way, option 1 benefits both your hagwon owner and you the most. Your hagwon owner is possibly trying to get out of paying you the severance pay. Certainly, in the case of option 3, you could try to fight this, but if you won, I think it would most likely become an extremely unpleasant situation even compared to now. Further, I doubt that you would get a good reference in such a scenario.
So, I don't think it is worth fighting simply so you can get your severance pay. Really, it makes the most sense to take a new job. Just make sure that whatever new job that you take, has good working conditions, better benefits, etc. |
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halfmanhalfbiscuit
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| And key her Equus on your way out. |
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VFRinterceptor
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:04 am Post subject: Re: I got terminated...take the letter of transfer or fight |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
...in the case of option 3, you could try to fight this, but if you won, I think it would most likely become an extremely unpleasant situation even compared to now... |
Can you be more specific as to how it would be more unpleasant? Aside from the possibility of them countersuing me, which would be bogus to begin with, I still see no tangible reason that can outweigh the possibility of winning my case. The penalty/fine stipulated by Korean Labor Laws state that if the school is found guilty of improper termination, I would be awarded 3 months salary.
You might say that the MOL is going to say that, but they don't have to pay it, but if I go at them, I'm using a lawyer, and my lawyer said that once I give them the retainer, which is not that much, that buys me their services until I get paid, even if it must go to court. The lawyer gets a retainer (less than 1mil) and collects 30% of any payout. So the only way the lawyer gets his 30%, is when I get paid. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: Re: I got terminated...take the letter of transfer or fight |
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| VFRinterceptor wrote: |
| Konglishman wrote: |
...in the case of option 3, you could try to fight this, but if you won, I think it would most likely become an extremely unpleasant situation even compared to now... |
Can you be more specific as to how it would be more unpleasant? Aside from the possibility of them countersuing me, which would be bogus to begin with, I still see no tangible reason that can outweigh the possibility of winning my case. The penalty/fine stipulated by Korean Labor Laws state that if the school is found guilty of improper termination, I would be awarded 3 months salary.
You might say that the MOL is going to say that, but they don't have to pay it, but if I go at them, I'm using a lawyer, and my lawyer said that once I give them the retainer, which is not that much, that buys me their services until I get paid, even if it must go to court. The lawyer gets a retainer (less than 1mil) and collects 30% of any payout. So the only way the lawyer gets his 30%, is when I get paid. |
I am certainly not a legal expert. So, I apologize if you thought otherwise. Anyways, now that I am thinking about this further, option 3 could potentially work out well given the fact that your hagwon owner is a politician. After all, she will want to avoid losing face and might try to reach some sort of deal with you. That said, I do think option 3 is potentially risky given that foreigners are not always treated fairly in the Korea and there is a good chance that you would not get a good letter of reference. |
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VFRinterceptor
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: Re: I got terminated...take the letter of transfer or fight |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
I am certainly not a legal expert. So, I apologize if you thought otherwise. Anyways, now that I am thinking about this further, option 3 could potentially work out well given the fact that your hagwon owner is a politician. After all, she will want to avoid losing face and might try to reach some sort of deal with you. That said, I do think option 3 is potentially risky given that foreigners are not always treated fairly in the Korea and there is a good chance that you would not get a good letter of reference. |
You'd think that she would be afraid of losing face, but, in the case of the teacher who was fired before me, he took his case to the labor board. He said the first meeting went in his favor and that things were looking good. Then he gets called in again and everything went south. He thinks that there might have been some political muscle flexed by her. That's just what he thinks though. The evidence against him that was brought in at the 2nd meeting was pretty strong. On top of that, during the time his case was going on, I noticed a few suits walking around the front office, I asked the front desk girl who they were and she said that they were auditors, in other words, from the MOL. Judging by the way they were treated, it looked to me like the red carpet was rolled out. Empty instant Maxim coffee packets everywhere.
So you'd think with her position she's afraid of getting in trouble, but it turns out, she would rather use her influence with the govt than to give in to demands...maybe. But if my case is solid enough, which I think it might be, see my previous thread http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=170020 |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| There's no such thing as a 'Letter of Transfer'. If you know anything about K law, you'd better come out swinging if you're up against a poltician. |
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Dude Ranch
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| If you have really been treated unfairly and you believe you are in the right then take action. Politicians want to avoid scandals at all cost. Go to the local press, get publicity. Start a facebook page. fundraise. Your victory could become part of a larger cause. |
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thecount
Joined: 10 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: |
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"There's no such thing as a 'Letter of Transfer"
The most vital thing for you to do know is to know, before you make any decisions, what your options actually ARE.
If you have been promised some sort of transfer method that (as I have quoted above) may not even exist, you must be acutely aware of that.
It appears your first task would be to ascertain whether or not this transfer method is legal / legit.
If it is, I would probably take it.
The reasoning behind this is that it is always best to avoid working under a boss or board that has it in for you, and make no mistake - if you challenge your employer, she *will* have it in for you. There are countless legal ways for an employer to make your life miserable if they wish to, and that's not just a "Korean" thing.
When looking at option 3, you must ask yourself "even if I win, can I still lose?"
It appears to me that, even in the case of a legal victory, you would have made enemies with connections - never a good thing. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: |
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First off, I have read your post and the entire thread you linked.
Question: What does your contract say about termination by the empolyer? Does the contract cover this? Are grounds required or is any reason acceptable with proper notice? Contract violation is your only hope for more than 30 days notice.
If your contract requires more than 30 days notice then Labor will enforce this. If not, the most you can get is 30 days.
Your employer can terminate you for being a poor teacher. He may have to show that you were a poor teacher and you might have to show that you are not, so there is risk on both sides. After all the wrangling you'll still only get 30 days pay. There is no need for repeated warnings if it is not in the contract.
Being before the 11th month at the time of termination makes it unlikely that you can prevail as in a 12th month firing case where it would be highly likely as an attempt to avoid airfare and severance obligations. |
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VFRinterceptor
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
First off, I have read your post and the entire thread you linked.
Question: What does your contract say about termination by the empolyer? Does the contract cover this? Are grounds required or is any reason acceptable with proper notice? Contract violation is your only hope for more than 30 days notice.
If your contract requires more than 30 days notice then Labor will enforce this. If not, the most you can get is 30 days.
Your employer can terminate you for being a poor teacher. He may have to show that you were a poor teacher and you might have to show that you are not, so there is risk on both sides. After all the wrangling you'll still only get 30 days pay. There is no need for repeated warnings if it is not in the contract.
Being before the 11th month at the time of termination makes it unlikely that you can prevail as in a 12th month firing case where it would be highly likely as an attempt to avoid airfare and severance obligations. |
The grounds they are using for termination is the '3 strikes and you're out' deal. Basically, they are saying that they've warned me numerous times before. I'll credit them with one warning, which was given to me 2 months into working there. That's the only one I can see as being valid in the eyes of the labor board. The other warnings were mere memos that listed no specific names or events. It just contained a laundry list of to-dos and contained the word "this is a warning" somewhere mixed in. |
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