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220 - 215 House nearly kills Socialized Health Ins: Senate?
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
The best regulator is the free market.


So true! Just let any puke put some shit in a bottle and call it medicine!! Hooray, free markets!! We win!! ....(oh, wait...what's that gurgling noise?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxy--AmtnVc
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
The best regulator is the free market.


So true! Just let any puke put some shit in a bottle and call it medicine!! Hooray, free markets!! We win!! ....(oh, wait...what's that gurgling noise?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxy--AmtnVc

You actually want to buy shit in a bottle? Then by all means, go ahead. But if you mean somebody committing fraud, well then good luck trying to stay in business when people find out. If you mean poison, well that is illegal and would land the people responsible in jail. There's no way these companies could put out unsafe products and not be found out.

But I suppose you think the FDA does a better job? Rolling Eyes The FDA is pure evil and actually keeps all the crap (whether psychotropic drugs for your children, or the unlabeled GMO foods you buy at the grocery store) on the market and stifles competition.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
The best regulator is the free market.


So true! Just let any puke put some shit in a bottle and call it medicine!! Hooray, free markets!! We win!! ....(oh, wait...what's that gurgling noise?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxy--AmtnVc

You actually want to buy shit in a bottle? Then by all means, go ahead. But if you mean somebody committing fraud, well then good luck trying to stay in business when people find out. If you mean poison, well that is illegal and would land the people responsible in jail. There's no way these companies could put out unsafe products and not be found out.

But I suppose you think the FDA does a better job? Rolling Eyes The FDA is pure evil and actually keeps all the crap (whether psychotropic drugs for your children, or the unlabeled GMO foods you buy at the grocery store) on the market and stifles competition.


I drink Budweiser (and the Cass/Hite/OB equivalents sometimes), so what would I know? While the FDA should no doubt be brought back behind the barn and shot, I'd still prefer that someone somewhere be (hopefully) held accountable for the wholesomeness of the crap I stumble across.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seonsengnimble wrote:
Rusty Shackleford wrote:
youtuber wrote:
The cost of prescription drugs needs to be regulated. It is one of the strongest drivers of healthcare costs.


Haha, in what way? Price controls? You do know that price controls never work, right?


Read up on the Sherman antitrust act. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act

This worked out pretty well. People don't have to spend most of their income on oil and electricity as a result of this legislation which limited monopolies which gave industries the ability to eliminate competition and charge whatever they wanted for necessary resources.

Two easy things could be done to lower the price of medication. Shorten the time pharmaceutical companies have on their patents, and allow US residents to purchase medication that's too expensive in the US from foreign distributors.

Under the current system, there is no competition and therefore no incentive to charge competitive prices for life saving medicine.

A "free" market where the largest companies can control the entire supply of a product is hardly free.

The Sherman Antitrust Act didn't work out. The Rockefeller Standard Oil companies are still a monopoly today. The Federal Reserve banking cartel was created after the antitrust act.

I agree that US residents should be allowed to purchase medication from any source they want. That's free market economics. Competition would force the domestic prices down. Lack of competition can be attributed to government intervention, as always.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
The best regulator is the free market.


So true! Just let any puke put some shit in a bottle and call it medicine!! Hooray, free markets!! We win!! ....(oh, wait...what's that gurgling noise?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxy--AmtnVc


You do know that we have a court system, and we have legal doctrines like a duty of care and product liability? Not to mention negligence per se statutes, which could be seen as quasi-regulations via defining negligence.

I'm not arguing medicine shouldn't have some regulations, but massive fail on this post.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
The best regulator is the free market.


So true! Just let any puke put some shit in a bottle and call it medicine!! Hooray, free markets!! We win!! ....(oh, wait...what's that gurgling noise?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxy--AmtnVc

You actually want to buy shit in a bottle? Then by all means, go ahead. But if you mean somebody committing fraud, well then good luck trying to stay in business when people find out. If you mean poison, well that is illegal and would land the people responsible in jail. There's no way these companies could put out unsafe products and not be found out.

But I suppose you think the FDA does a better job? Rolling Eyes The FDA is pure evil and actually keeps all the crap (whether psychotropic drugs for your children, or the unlabeled GMO foods you buy at the grocery store) on the market and stifles competition.


I drink Budweiser (and the Cass/Hite/OB equivalents sometimes), so what would I know? While the FDA should no doubt be brought back behind the barn and shot, I'd still prefer that someone somewhere be (hopefully) held accountable for the wholesomeness of the crap I stumble across.

Fair enough, but a reputable private regulator would be better. In the first place, you wouldn't have to pay taxes to support it. If the private regulator lied to the public, its reputation would be lost and it would go out of business. To argue that a private regulator would be inherently corrupt would be to ignore the obvious fact that the FDA is corrupt to the core and has government backing.

Ultimately it is impossible to 100% guarantee product safety, but federal regulators have done a terrible job. In fact, in many cases they openly encourage the development of unsafe products.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
The best regulator is the free market.


So true! Just let any puke put some shit in a bottle and call it medicine!! Hooray, free markets!! We win!! ....(oh, wait...what's that gurgling noise?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxy--AmtnVc


You do know that we have a court system, and we have legal doctrines like a duty of care and product liability? Not to mention negligence per se statutes, which could be seen as quasi-regulations via defining negligence.

I'm not arguing medicine shouldn't have some regulations, but massive fail on this post.


Kuros, I am in good standing at Suffolk Law in Boston (I have about a half year left to complete my studies). Unfortunately we haven't moved on to our studies of legal doctrines, but I'm sure that when we do I will undoubtedly have the misfortune of sitting next to a pompous guy with too much gel in his hair who likes to listen to himself talk.

I think I'll nickname him "Kuros".

In short, Mr. Vapid, those concepts which you are apparently trying to apprise me of are encoded in my genes. Why don't you actually work as a lawyer before you spout off? I did, albeit not with a degree, as my family almost entirely consists of lawyers and I worked since I was 14 years old in their respective firms. I have seen how the law, government and society interacts. You, on the otherhand, while all lathered up in your first year of law school zeal (as it comes across), seem simply naive.

One of the reasons why it took me so long to get through law school is that I have to attend classes (in short doses) with people that, while not intelligent by any means, are convinced that since they have a chair in the room they are the next Perry Mason. Since I have a very low tolerance for such pufftards, I take it one step at a time.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
Kuros wrote:
caniff wrote:
visitorq wrote:
The best regulator is the free market.


So true! Just let any puke put some shit in a bottle and call it medicine!! Hooray, free markets!! We win!! ....(oh, wait...what's that gurgling noise?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxy--AmtnVc


You do know that we have a court system, and we have legal doctrines like a duty of care and product liability? Not to mention negligence per se statutes, which could be seen as quasi-regulations via defining negligence.

I'm not arguing medicine shouldn't have some regulations, but massive fail on this post.


Kuros, I am in good standing at Suffolk Law in Boston (I have about a half year left to complete my studies). Unfortunately we haven't moved on to our studies of legal doctrines, but I'm sure that when we do I will undoubtedly have the misfortune of sitting next to a pompous guy with too much gel in his hair who likes to listen to himself talk.

I think I'll nickname him "Kuros".

In short, Mr. Vapid, those concepts which you are apparently trying to apprise me of are encoded in my genes. Why don't you actually work as a lawyer before you spout off? I did, albeit not with a degree, as my family almost entirely consists of lawyers and I worked since I was 14 years old in their respective firms. I have seen how the law, government and society interacts. You, on the otherhand, while all lathered up in your first year of law school zeal (as it comes across), seem simply naive.

One of the reasons why it took me so long to get through law school is that I have to attend classes (in short doses) with people that, while not intelligent by any means, are convinced that since they have a chair in the room they are the next Perry Mason. Since I have a very low tolerance for such pufftards, I take it one step at a time.


I really don't care about your history or your opinion of me. If you have a case to make, something along the lines that regulations do what the court system can't, go ahead.

But snide remarks to those like visitorq will only draw sharp rebuttals from others.
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah.

Anyway, I was just pointing out that while I may have been having some fun on the internet taking a contrarian view, you basically come across as one of the pompous people I have had to listen to in my own years of law school. Even the professors didn't like these people and wish they would go away. I know, as some of these law professors are my drinking buddies.

Pomposity is a mask, Kuros. Don't be that guy.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
Yeah.

Anyway, I was just pointing out that while I may have been having some fun on the internet taking a contrarian view, you basically come across as one of the pompous people I have had to listen to in my own years of law school. Even the professors didn't like these people and wish they would go away. I know, as some of these law professors are my drinking buddies.

Pomposity is a mask, Kuros. Don't be that guy.


You just gave me a summary of your credentials and then not ask me to be pompous. As odd as that is, what does any of this have to do with the subject at hand?

So you acknowledge the tort system. And I've admitted that I agree some medical regulations are necessary. So?
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:

So you acknowledge the tort system. And I've admitted that I agree some medical regulations are necessary. So?


So what? So, let's dance!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKcY75LIkRw

(p.s. Kuros made me apologize to him via PM, which I did, so I guess I can no longer participate in this thread.)
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davesucksnfl



Joined: 11 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this isn't a bad discussion.

America's system is a very mixed bag. I know someone who was laid off from a corporate job last year and lost her insurance. She was/is being diagnosed with liver cancer. Her husband is a doctor, but even his insurance and income make the normal course of treatment completely unaffordable.

But innovation is a HUGE part of the American system. The free enterprise/profit model creates many of the new treatments and drugs that the world uses. The other side of the coin is, that more than a third of the 'expense' of new pills of any type can be attributed to advertising, rather than any R&A, production costs.

The number of people with no healthcare in America is simply too large. The access is a mixed bag. So is the quality of care, because HMOs have been demonstrated to time and again have profit ranked above 'service'.

The idea that the free market is the best regulator just isn't true. It's the best innovator, no doubt there, but the market needs regulation itself. A regulated free market is fine, but we're talking about such a massive reform that the entire basis of the system would have to be gutted.

Korea's system isn't that bad, with X covered for everyone, with additional costs being left to the patient or private/supplementary insurance.

Canada's system isn't bad, and would be a lot better if a more darwinist attitude were adopted, by forcing the cost of things like smoking related illness, drunk driving etc on to the smokers and drunk drivers. Same goes for the obese. If people who were, say, 25% or more above their ideal weight, then any illness that arose due to that wouldn't be covered. That might provide motivation for people to quit smoking and lose weight, as well as reduce healthcare costs.

The French system is quite good.

I've researched a fair amount of this and I could go on and on, but I'll stop there.
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seonsengnimble



Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus

PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
seonsengnimble wrote:
Two easy things could be done to lower the price of medication. Shorten the time pharmaceutical companies have on their patents , and allow US residents to purchase medication that's too expensive in the US from foreign distributors.


Both of these things are good ideas, but wouldn't both of them actually be reducing regulation, rather than increasing it? These suggestions seem to fall into line with the assertion that current high prices were caused by excessive governmental involvement in the first place, since they're suggesting the government stop doing something it's doing right now.


This is why I need to hook up a breathalyzer to my keyboard.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Democrats Worry Joe Lieberman Could Sink Health Care

FOX News - By Jay Newton-small / Washington �
Fri Nov 13, 5:30 am ET

Senate Democrats are used to the lashing their Republican colleagues dish out every week on the Sunday-morning political shows, but lately their biggest headache has been one of their own. And while they would dearly love to fire back at Joe Lieberman of Connecticut after his almost weekly bomb-throwings, there is little they can do but bite the insides of their cheeks and bear it.

On last weekend's Fox News Sunday, Lieberman, chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, announced that he was launching an investigation into whether the Fort Hood massacre suspect was in fact a terrorist. The Sunday before, on CBS's Face the Nation, Lieberman said he would support a Republican filibuster of health care reform if the Democratic bill included a public option - as it currently does. "I feel so strongly about the creation of another government health-insurance entitlement," Lieberman told CBS's Bob Schieffer. "I think it's such a mistake that I would use the power I have as a single Senator to stop a final vote."

Just days before that, he told ABC News he intended to campaign for both Republican and Democratic candidates in next year's midterm elections. And late last month, in a rare oversight hearing of the Obama Administration, he examined the legality of the President's so-called czars - a favorite bone of contention of Fox News' Glenn Beck and talk radio's Rush Limbaugh.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Democrat Ben Nelson Draws a Line in the Sand on Health Care

Nelson Won't Vote for Health Care Bill That Looks Like the House Version

By JONATHAN KARL
Nov. 11, 2009

In a warning sign for the White House, Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska tells ABC News that he'll vote to block any health care bill that looks like the bill passed by the House.

ABC News' Jonathan Karl chats with Sen. Ben Nelson on the Capitol Hill subway."Well, first of all, it has more than a robust public option, it's got a totally government-run plan, the costs are extraordinary associated with it, it increases taxes in a way that will not pass in the Senate and I could go on and on and on," Nelson said in an interview that is part of ABC News' Subway Series with Jonathan Karl.

"Faced with a decision about whether or not to move a bill that is bad, I won't vote to move it," he added. "For sure."

The $1.1 trillion price tag on the House bill, Nelson said, is "absolutely" too high.
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