Korean Job Discussion Forums

[definitely maybe]

Over the course of nearly eight years in Korea, I've noticed how reluctant the locals are to admit fault and apologize in just about any situation where they are clearly at fault. Now don't get me wrong; I'm not going to try to argue that every Korean is completely absent of manners. I really don't believe that. However, a relatively minor situation I endured today has left me questioning the values taught in Korean society, yet again.

First, a little background. I am married and have a child. Like many F-2-1 visaholders, I do benefit from a far friendlier schedule than your average E-2. Having a large apartment with a few spare rooms, we've set up a "study room" in the front guestroom. We're licensed and completely comply with Korean laws, so that's not an issue. It is the study room I just mentioned where the event transpired.

Today, while teaching a group on kindergarteners, I had to stop a child from nearly ripping her seat cover in half. Now I realize that kids are kids, so I gently scolded her for destroying my furniture. I did not yell, but I was firm. My exact words, in English and then clarified with Korean were, "That's my chair, not yours. Why did you ruin my chair? That's not what good girls do. I'm very sad now." Her reaction was, of course, less than receptive. She broke into tears and crawled under the table. The lesson was nearly over, so we had to get the kids ready to be picked up while doing a little damage control. Therefore, I did not force an apology on the spot.

Since she refused to leave the room with the rest of her group, it provided an opportune time to pull her mother aside and explain the situation. As those of you who work with younger children will probably attest, it's best to deliver news to parents, especially when misbehavior or punishment are involved, immediately. That way you can give them an accurate depiction of the true story before their "little angels" fill their heads with lies. That was what my wife and I set out to do.

Unfortunately, as I guess I should have expected, the mother laughed off the situation. She said that we need to be careful when her daughter feels bad, and I must have done something to upset her. My wife, always the diplomat, attempted to explain why her daughter was upset for a second time. Very little ground was covered in resolving the situation. In fact, the child's mother became visibly irritated with our persistence. She decided that it was time to go, and that was that.

Before she was able to get into the elevator, we explained that this is our home, not a hagwon, and we will not tolerate similar behavior in the future. This was primarily said in an effort to elicit and apology, but also a warning. We have more requests for lessons than we can accomodate in our neighborhood, and I've always been very up front with my stance on discipline. I'm not going to deal with this kind of stuff in my home. Of course, all we received was a lowered head, half in shame and half in disgust at a foreigner who doesn't know his place.

To be honest, a situation like this usually is pretty easy to disregard. However, I find myself faced with some serious questions regarding how we will raise our son. I want to teach him that he should always be respecftul and polite to both adults and peers, especially when he has done something wrong. With that said, I also don't want him to suffer because of his western upbringing. Why should he have apologize to other children , or adults for that matter, when the very act I'm demanding of him seems to be unthinkable to the people who he is expected to apologize to?

I can't teach him that a double-standard exists that requires him to only be gracious and upstanding to non-Koreans. Not only is that ridiculous, it's incredibly unfair to half of his family. A half, I might add, that conducts themselves incredibly politely in public and at home, just as a large percentage of folks do in this country. Teaching a child something ridiculous like that simply perpetuates racial tension, and that's not something I'd ever want to contribute to.

I guess this has turned into a bit of a self-righteous rant, but I'd really appreciate the insight of others on this topic. We've always planned on heading back to the states, but my wife and I would like out son to spend some significant time learning about where his mom and her family are from. Are we expecting too much from Korea? Is international school truly the only answer? Am I really just being hyper-sensitive about something that I would've shrugged off a few years ago? I mean, things like this do happen at literally every street corner throughout the country, right? Have at it folks.

[yingwenlaoshi]

You went too far.

[Bog Roll]

[exit86]

(Preface: I'm in a similar situation--married with two daughters here in Korea.)


Yeah, "I'm sorry" is a tough thing for many folks here to say;
I reckon it is because--in serious situations--it is a loss of face.
It sounds like your K. mom was trying to communicate her shame through metamessages (nervous grin, changing the subject, trying to laugh it off, trying to blame you, slightly lowered head) in expectation of you being in tune with her signals through a good sense of "nunchi" (눈치)

Sounds like you may not have received her non-verbal messages though.
In this case--through her eyes--you are not a very nice person.

I would have very briefly brought up the subject with her, laughed it off with her together, and given her a similar nervous grin with a few bows to show you were sorry for bringing up a subject which would catch her off guard and make her feel uncomfortable in your direct presence. Then I would have thanked her for her understanding.

Sorta a run-around by Western standards, but an extremely important process here in NE Asia.

One thing I have learned in my ten years here is that strict rules are only appreciated here when you give folks a break from them once in a while.
Once again, really silly by Western standards, but really important here in Korea.
Who knows anyway???????

[davesucksnfl]

someone might pipe in with confucianism or some other explanation. I don't buy into that at all. There is a definite lack of respect for public property and property other than your own. garbage, spitting, etc being good examples. The state of most public school and public bathrooms in this country speaks volumes.

Discipline and self-control are also lacking. Kids run around with little regard to what's going on around them. 12 year olds ride in shopping carts here, for christ's sake. There is no maturity.

And in two similar incidents. earlier today I was on the bus back to my city from seoul. it was a deluxe bus and I was sitting beside a woman in her 50s. she elbowed my arm hard enough 4 times to actually move it. Not once was this even acknowledged.

And about 10 days ago I was in a homeplus. two kids were fighting and shaking and rolling a cart all over the place, and screaming ( and I mean SCREAMING) while the parents paid no attention. The kids were blocking the entire path. the cart was spun quickly at me, I stuck out my hand to stop it from slamming in to me. The sudden stop caused one of the kids to slam into the cart. At which point I got dirty looks and some words hurled in my direction, while they got my middle finger in return.

[Cartman]

I would've probably made a bigger scene on the spot. I'm sick of all the little BRATS doing what they want, knowing that they can get away with it since they can lie and just blame the teacher or the school. When I say brats, I'm not even talkin kindies... I'm talkin the elementaries...

I wouldn't be surprised if that parent complains about you to the principle (or whoever), threatening to switch schools; then it bites you in the ass because the school is just trying to keep as many people registered as possible and keep their enrollment money.

It's twisted.

Nip this in the bud and make sure you let all the right authorities know your side of the story right away. I'd love to catch some of the kids in the act who are messing up our walls with stupid graffiti !!

[pkang0202]

What the hell is wrong with Koreans nowadays?

If I pulled that crap with MY Korean parents, I'd get spanked twice. Once there on the spot in front of the teacher, and once more at home.

[definitely maybe]

[beercanman]

Maybe it is hard to say for some folks. Like "I'm wrong" or "I love you"

[definitely maybe]

[bassexpander]

Recently my cousin back home had her kid enrolled in a daycare. At that daycare, they encourage the kids to kiss/hug, show affection. My cousin made the comment that she would rather her son not be involved in the kissing/hugging so much, out of fear of swine flu transmission.

The owners of the daycare later called and asked her to pick her child up, because they were now longer allowing her to keep her child at the daycare. They didn't like her request, and decided they no longer wanted her business.

Is that weird, or what?

[aishiii]

Where I'm from, we'd buy you a new chair.

I've had similar instances. My korean nieces were little monsters. Really loud, tough, undisciplined girls. Always breaking things, never caring about anything. One time I had just bought one of those inflatable exercise balls, and while I was out they came over. They popped it, of course. I was pissed that I didn't get an apology and I really did expect them to buy me a new ball. I was kinda shocked when the thought never crossed anybody else's mind.

Korea really has serious problems, and this is not a new revelation. Unfortunately, they seem to get away with it. Since coming here I've thought a lot about culture and tried my best to have an open mind. I'm told often by my wife that I can't judge a culture, but I really think I can and some cultures truly need to be judged. Culture probably is the wrong word here, with a better word being society. It's sad how the only dedication shown here is for money. Character, integrity, honesty, discipline, selflessness, sacrifice, ... none of these seem to be important, and none are taught. That's so sad.

No matter how long I'm here, it really is amazing how Koreans can't see what a mess most things are. The school system is a joke. Children's behavior is a joke. Why can't they see this? The kids at my elementary school are so arrogant. Every last one of them, even the good ones. They show no respect to anyone, including the Korean teachers. The Korean teachers don't even try and allow the little snots to abuse them. The teachers are slaves to the children, and they act like it. They're terrified of the parents. So sad!

Do they really think this is the path to success? Can it be? And why hasn't it bit them in the butt big time?

Anyways, back to the OP. A person with normal values would compensate you for it. A Korean will never compensate you for it (or apologize). And they have no problem sleeping at night. Culture smulture.

[Nemo]

You were right not to back down (nun chi or otherwise).

Koreans will walk all over you like a doormat if you let them.

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

[earthbound14]

Hell I have the same problem with my own wife. She never says sorry. My bosses don't say sorry when they don't let us know about changes. My Korean friends don't say sorry when they suddenly can't make a get together.

Sometimes though, some Koreans are just all over the "I'm sorry". But they seem to be the minority. It seems to be a sign of weakness. Only the weak ones say sorry.

I don't know. It seems wacky to me and it drives me nuts. It seems to me Korea is in an odd spot these days where people do not wish to acknowledge fault. Doesn't really jive with what I see in Korean movies. The older movies always show some grand show of respect when someone is at fault. Great bowing and apologies with gifts even.

However on the flip side, saving face would actually counter act the idea of such grand apologies. As apologizying would in itself be a lose of face.

Whatever. It's a bloody mind trip for me. As a western person I just don't get it and I feel like so often things don't get dealt with because people don't want to lose face. Apologies only come out when someone is clearly in the wrong...especially if an authority has said so. If you aren't an authority or do not have any authority on your side then you will not likely hear an apology. Bringing up the transgression when you are not in a position of authority will only result in a lose of face for the person who is at fault and likely anger from them if you push it.

So it sounds like in this case the mother felt that rather than complaining about her daughter's actions, you were complaining about her parenting and showing that you were a better person than her. She probably felt that it was up to you to control her child's behaviour while at your school and was your fault for the damage to the chair as well as the resulting tears from the child. If you had dealt with the situation better, neither would have happened....so no apology. You would have only got an apology from her if you could show her direct proof or the transgression (maybe why so many schools have cameras in them).

It seems awfully childish, but that seems to be how it goes around here. If you had been a school administrator or a real teacher, perhaps your words would have had more effect. As it is, she is paying you to teach and entertain her child....so you work for her. She has no legal reason to bring her child to you and thus no legal reason to feel sorry about it.

It seems to be the way Koreans treat those who work for them.

As for my wife and I, she gets very upset when I mention something she should say sorry for. What she sees is her hurt feelings and I'm the one doing the hurting (because I am essentially telling her something is wrong with her). She does not see the fact that I want her to recognize something and admit it to me so that we can move on. She sees it as an insult. Which seems to correspond to the way she treats me when I screw up. She doesn't ask me to say sorry. She just craps on me for whatever thing it may have been that I did wrong. So I wish to resolve things and talk about it (which to her is an insult)...she wants to fight over it. Not entirely a Korean thing...as my mother did this to my father for 20 years, but something I've come to expect more of in Korea.

So I suppose, what I'm saying is that if you aren't higher up on the totem pole...apologies aren't going to be coming your way and it will be up to you to save face. If you are in a position of more equality, or dealing with someone who is relatively strong willed (or easily hurt)...then expect your comments designed to illicit an apology to be percieved of as a precursor to an argument or perhaps a challenge to ones position (or hierarchy).

Statistically most Koreans still see arguments and violence as the best ways to resolve and issue...sorry I don't have a reference for this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I did read this in a study done in Korea about how Koreans choose to resolve conflict.

Of course, Koreans also seem to like to deal with these things in off hand ways (you know to save face) and you cannot push the issue. You have to assume that they understand, yet they seem like they are not at all admitting fault.

We had a child who was being roughed up by her father. At first she was just a misbehaved child and it was constantly placed on my shoulders to deal with her (it was my fault). Nothing was mentioned to the parents. Finally I noticed bruises on her arms and asked who had done it. At the time I was new in the country and not sure what to do. So I brought it up with my bosses. They seemed like they weren't going to do anything. So I brought it up again. They tried to play down the issue until I dragged the student out to show the bruises on her arms and had her tell them who had done it. At which point they called dad. I have no idea what was said but the conversation was short and seemed pretty mild. He came to school very shortly after wards with gifts. He never made an open apology and nothing was mentioned about why he came. My bosses never said he actually hit her and blew off whatever I asked about the situation. But I had a great big basket of different juice. It was a real shame, as I just wanted to help the kid. I had no interest in his lose of face or any need for respect from his daughter in this case. I can only hope that things got better for the girl.