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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: Barack Obama still falling all over himself to bow abroad... |
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How low will the new American president go for the world's royalty?
This photo will get Democrat President Obama a lot of approving nods in Japan this weekend, especially among the older generation of Japanese who still pay attention to the royal family living in its downtown castle. Very low bows like this are a sign of great respect and deference to a superior.
To some in the United States, however, an upright handshake might have looked better. Remember Michelle Obama casually patting Britain's Queen Elizabeth on the back during their Buckingham Palace visit? America's royalty tends to make movies and get bad reviews and lots of money as a sign of respect.
Obama could receive some frowns back home as he did for his not-quite-this-low-or-maybe-about-the-same-bow to the Saudi king not so long ago... |
LA Times |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| This doesn't bother (non-American) me. Bowing at the Saudi king is one thing, but Japan is a democratic, free, capitalistic country. Though I'm a bit of a Japanophile. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| This doesn't bother (non-American) me. Bowing at the Saudi king is one thing, but Japan is a democratic, free, capitalistic country. Though I'm a bit of a Japanophile. |
The thing is, once you defer to protocol in one situation and bow to a particular ruler, can you really then start picking and choosing which monarchs you do and do not bow to? I guess if your country is at war with the monarchy in question, you can justify keeping things as business-like as possible. But, like it or not, Saudi Arabia is an American ally, no less so than Japan, so I don't see how Obama could bow for one but not the other. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| The thing is, once you defer to protocol in one situation and bow to a particular ruler, can you really then start picking and choosing which monarchs you do and do not bow to? |
I don't know.
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| I guess if your country is at war with the monarchy in question, you can justify keeping things as business-like as possible. But, like it or not, Saudi Arabia is an American ally, no less so than Japan, so I don't see how Obama could bow for one but not the other. |
Bowing is how things are done in Japan. Even at 7-11. I didn't see similar behaviour in the UAE, which I assume is quite similar to Saudi. Perhaps one is supposed to bow to the Saudi king, I don't know. But one is expected to bow several hundred times a day in Japan. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The thing is, once you defer to protocol in one situation and bow to a particular ruler, can you really then start picking and choosing which monarchs you do and do not bow to? |
I don't know.
| Quote: |
| I guess if your country is at war with the monarchy in question, you can justify keeping things as business-like as possible. But, like it or not, Saudi Arabia is an American ally, no less so than Japan, so I don't see how Obama could bow for one but not the other. |
Bowing is how things are done in Japan. Even at 7-11. I didn't see similar behaviour in the UAE, which I assume is quite similar to Saudi. Perhaps one is supposed to bow to the Saudi king, I don't know. But one is expected to bow several hundred times a day in Japan. |
That's a good point. I don't know if Obama was bowing to the Emperor of Japan because he's the Emperor, or simply because he's Japanese. I guess we'd have to know if Obama is bowing to everyone else he meets when he visits Japan. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| It's Japan, not America, so bowing isn't a sign of submission. It's a greeting and expression of respect, nothing more. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Barack Obama still falling all over himself to bow abroa |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Quote: |
How low will the new American president go for the world's royalty?
This photo will get Democrat President Obama a lot of approving nods in Japan this weekend, especially among the older generation of Japanese who still pay attention to the royal family living in its downtown castle. Very low bows like this are a sign of great respect and deference to a superior.
To some in the United States, however, an upright handshake might have looked better. Remember Michelle Obama casually patting Britain's Queen Elizabeth on the back during their Buckingham Palace visit? America's royalty tends to make movies and get bad reviews and lots of money as a sign of respect.
Obama could receive some frowns back home as he did for his not-quite-this-low-or-maybe-about-the-same-bow to the Saudi king not so long ago... |
LA Times |
Bowing to the Japanese royals is one thing, but bowing to the Saudi King disgusted most Americans. Perhaps if the Saudis were civilized and tolerant. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree with the general sentiment among the responses. Bowing in Japan (or the slighter bow in Korea for example) is more about courtesy than if Obama bowed before a British monarch which is more of a sign of submission. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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This is a matter of state, however, between two heads of state.
Did the Japanese monarch return the bow/courtesy/expression of respect? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have no problem with the President of the United States engaging in any gesture of respect with foreign leaders, so long as it's a gesture of respect between equals. That's not what I saw here; Obama bowed quite deeply, while the Emperor didn't really seem to bow at all, and certainly not to the degree Obama did. Obama also gave a much more moderated bow to the Emperor's wife, making me feel like he knew exactly what he was doing bowing as deeply as he did to the Emperor.
I've got no problem with Japan, but I do have a problem with Obama seemingly not realizing that it's not okay for the man representing America to be making submissive gestures to the leaders of other countries. Being open to other cultures is good, but not at the cost of America's dignity. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:39 am Post subject: |
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I think he shouldn't of bowed. It's a meeting of equals, between two heads of state. The Japanese PM is the one that should be bowing to the emperor. Kind of surprised that his advisors didn't give him some advice on this, or that he didn't listen to them.
I'm Canadian BTW. Hopefully one day Canada will get rid of the monarchy. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| I guess we'd have to know if Obama is bowing to everyone else he meets when he visits Japan. |
Yeah, I bet he was walking around the hotel, bowing to the Japanese, and then walking around bowing to the PM, then you know...
Excellent thread. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Being open to other cultures is good, but not at the cost of America's dignity. |
Worst case scenario: Obama starts being viewed as a soft touch around the world.
Best case scenario: Foreign countries are humbled and touched by his genuine interest and diplomacy... and a new age of mutual co-operation and respect begins. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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My first impression of that picture is someone bowing, and showing respect to an older person.
I think Obama's advisors told him the importance of age in Japanese culture. I'm sure many older Japanese (aka the ones that hold positions of power/prestige) were impressed.
I don't see in that picture someone bowing in submission. I see a younger man giving respect to an older man. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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The US is broke but still carries a big stick.
Looks like a poker game to me these days.
(That's my take, even though I poo-pooed this thread. I'll go ahead and extrapolate this comment to virtually all Obama/FA-related threads.)
On the plus side, Obama pulls off a bow better than a Bush because when you smirk it doesn't count. |
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