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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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 Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| Would you be willing to stay out of the domestic affairs of the Third Reich so long as they refrained from engaging your country in conflict? |
If they had kept to themselves there never would have been a war. But it was in their nature to provoke and then fight that war.
Back in the real world, that is exactly the position the American govt has taken in its relations with Beijing since 1972 -- and rightly so. |
It was a hypothetical. I'm sure you can imagine a scenario (like the Beijing example you gave) where the Third Reich lacked that nature to provoke your particular country and yet still had most of the same domestic ongoings.
I'd say it might be pragmatically so that the US doesn't get involved. I don't know where you get "rightly" from assuming you're invoking a sense of moral right of some sort. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| I don't know where you get "rightly" from assuming you're invoking a sense of moral right of some sort. |
I reject morality, "human rights," and other such idealistic discourses in foreign relations. I value realist politics and practical relations. Focus on common interests in security and trade and stop sweating the other stuff.
So I value the Nixon administration's approach to Beijing: China's internal affairs are exactly that: China's internal affairs. The United States govt should not concern itself with them.
The world is a complex, multicultural place, Street. I disagree with any one group imposing the-world-according-to-it, be it the Nazi worldview or the international human-rights people's worldview, onto everyone else. Highly-committed activists and idealists, from the inflexible Hollywood human-rights crowd to inflexible Islamic fundamentalists, will strongly disagree with this "the world is imperfect, so are we all, so live and let live" approach. C'est la vie. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Well, Turkey is mostly Islamic country and advanced by many counts. The same applies to parts of the United Arab Emirates in terms of its efforst at reforestation, planting, attracting tourism. Syria is self-sufficient in many ways. True, it's a socialist state and secular many ways. Generally, the West has only been advanced for a very short time when you compare the whole history of the East. That's something to ponder. India was a basket case for a long time, but it is coming back. Things are in flux with humanity. Some people focus on the current state of the Arabs or what have you to say they are inferior Aravim (Arabs) people. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| Would you be willing to stay out of the domestic affairs of the Third Reich so long as they refrained from engaging your country in conflict? |
If they had kept to themselves there never would have been a war. But it was in their nature to provoke and then fight that war. This question is hypothetical and requires counterfactual thinking.
Back in the real world, that is exactly the position the American govt has taken in its relations with Beijing since 1972 -- and rightly so. |
Except that Tibet is a sovereign nation. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| No, it is not. Just like Taiwan, it remains a wayward Chinese province, destined, sooner or later, to return home... |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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I reject the notion of "advanced". Also terms like "wayward" and "underdeveloped".... also - how can one place be more or less "globablized" than another? You can't have a party if only a few people show up.
Bergson should have stuck to metaphysics. Funny how these guys write this kind of us/them philosophy at the end of their lives. Kind of like H.G Wells and his "at the end of his tether".
This is so 19th century BS.
| Quote: |
| Focus on common interests in security and trade and stop sweating the other stuff. |
Gopher, I agree with the spirit of your post. However, it only works if countries respect each others sovereignty and territory. A Voltarian, Cultivez notre jardin, foreign policy - so to speak.
And it only works if you aren't at the wrong end of meddling, covert operations, kidnapping, foreign internment etc. Cheney being the mentor but other countries as well being very adept at this stuff.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| And it only works if you aren't at the wrong end of meddling, covert operations, kidnapping, foreign internment etc. |
And beheadings. You left out beheadings. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| How about Olympic massacres and airline hijackings, too? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| I reject the notion of "advanced". Also terms like "wayward" and "underdeveloped".... |
That's fine, but these words describe real world situations and conditions. That's why most people use them, and understand their meanings.
| ddeubel wrote: |
| also - how can one place be more or less "globablized" than another? You can't have a party if only a few people show up. |
There are quite a few countries in the world. If most of them take part heavily in the global economy, and a few involve themselves to a noticably lesser degree, those few are less globalized. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Well, Turkey is mostly Islamic country and advanced by many counts. The same applies to parts of the United Arab Emirates in terms of its efforst at reforestation, planting, attracting tourism. Syria is self-sufficient in many ways. True, it's a socialist state and secular many ways. Generally, the West has only been advanced for a very short time when you compare the whole history of the East. That's something to ponder. India was a basket case for a long time, but it is coming back. Things are in flux with humanity. Some people focus on the current state of the Arabs or what have you to say they are inferior Aravim (Arabs) people. |
Many Turks would say that the country is advanced due to Kemal Ataturk:
Ataturk replaced the Shariah law with the European legal codes.
Ataturk replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar.
Ataturk replaced the Arabic script with the Latin script.
Ataturk closed all religious schools.
Ataturk banned traditional clothing.
Ataturk tried to remove as much Arab/Bedouin influence as possible from Turkish culture because he knew Turkey could not modernize as it was. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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More importantly,Ytuque, he abolished the caliphate, subordinated the ulama to secular authority, and then systematically subordinated their social power, not just education, to secular authority.
Total contrast, for example, with post-Safavid Iran. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ytuque wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Well, Turkey is mostly Islamic country and advanced by many counts. The same applies to parts of the United Arab Emirates in terms of its efforst at reforestation, planting, attracting tourism. Syria is self-sufficient in many ways. True, it's a socialist state and secular many ways. Generally, the West has only been advanced for a very short time when you compare the whole history of the East. That's something to ponder. India was a basket case for a long time, but it is coming back. Things are in flux with humanity. Some people focus on the current state of the Arabs or what have you to say they are inferior Aravim (Arabs) people. |
Many Turks would say that the country is advanced due to Kemal Ataturk:
Ataturk replaced the Shariah law with the European legal codes.
Ataturk replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar.
Ataturk replaced the Arabic script with the Latin script.
Ataturk closed all religious schools.
Ataturk banned traditional clothing.
Ataturk tried to remove as much Arab/Bedouin influence as possible from Turkish culture because he knew Turkey could not modernize as it was. |
Yes, but you forget that Turkey was also advanced at one time while being a caliphate. Could you say Turkey was really so backward under Suleyman the Magnificent? I wouldn't agree. However, the interpretation of Islam and culture at some point went backwards. Wasn't Andalucia in Spain technologically advanced for its time when compared to Europe or much of the world?
Yes, it was, and it was rather religious compared to today's standards, though liberal in many ways. You need at least some liberalism to flourish. It's interesting that people speak about that, but then at other times people treat liberalism as a kind of disease.
I do think if a state is too affected by dogmatic elements it can be dangerous for the society and that includes sectarian elements in
America wanting an Armaggedon or Israelis or Arab Muslims wanting religious confrontation. Dogmatic elements often encourage divisions within a society,because they are not flexible.
What is advanced? It's relative. The Spaniards after taking over Andalucia were technologically advanced, but they slaughtered so many Indians and forced Jews and Muslims to abandon their faith. Advanced Muslims with technology pressured Hindus to abandon their faith.
The British Empire, with all its glory, suppressed America, was connected to the starvation of perhaps 25% of Ireland at some point, and this was called by someone in a newspaper a holocaust, which was one of the first references to that word in modern times. You had advanced Belgium connected to maybe the death of 10 million Congolese.
Ghandi once remarked when he was asked about his opinion of "Western Civilization" the following: "It's a good idea".
I am not fixated on Western civilization versus Eastern civilization or
African civilization. I think sometimes people still have the "White man's burden" mentality and focus on judging others as barbaric. There is definitely things that are undesirable in parts of Africa, the Middle East, and India, and we should be grateful for certain things we have in our countries, but we are far from perfect, and have conducted ourselves in a horrible manner to some extent in history.
It's not only people from the Third World who have been guilty of war crimes and terrorism or have been historically backward.
Anyway, nice discussion.. Interesting thoughts. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| Why can't you be more like me? |
I agree with the spirit of this question. I don't need them to change who they are. I don't really care if women in Saudi wear their clown costumes outside. I don't care. I don't care. A million times, I don't care. Western people need to accept that inside of every obedient muslim or whoever isn't a secular, liberal minded American/Canadian/Brit who just needs some social justice to stop oppressing their women or hating the Jews etc. They are who they are. I demand nothing of them. That is, nothing more than they stay home. We should reciprocate. |
But this doesn't work. Distinguishing the Hirsi Alis from Al Qaeda operatives is easy, but what about former Muslims from the Mideast who want to immigrate? Anyway, the world is too small for this kind of segregation to really work. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Koveras wrote: |
| Why can't you be more like me? |
I agree with the spirit of this question. I don't need them to change who they are. I don't really care if women in Saudi wear their clown costumes outside. I don't care. I don't care. A million times, I don't care. Western people need to accept that inside of every obedient muslim or whoever isn't a secular, liberal minded American/Canadian/Brit who just needs some social justice to stop oppressing their women or hating the Jews etc. They are who they are. I demand nothing of them. That is, nothing more than they stay home. We should reciprocate. |
But this doesn't work. Distinguishing the Hirsi Alis from Al Qaeda operatives is easy, but what about former Muslims from the Mideast who want to immigrate? Anyway, the world is too small for this kind of segregation to really work. |
Under the current guidelines it obviously wouldn't work. And what's up with the former Muslims (apostates) coming from the Middle East? Has this become an issue? Is it more than an insignificant trickle? |
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sarahsiobhan
Joined: 24 May 2009
Location: Wherever I am , I am probably drinking tea.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I would agree with some above posters that Turkey is a magnificent example of a Muslim society that has gracefully entered the modern world. I have traveled extensively in that country and could easily and happily live there. Yes, Ataturk removed a lot of the 'traditional' Muslim aspects from the society, but one cannot argue it is any less Muslim for the removal of beheadings and Sharia and other nasty business. Anyway, from the Muslims I know, these are the trappings of extremism, and we all can agree that extremism in ANY religion is highly unpleasant.
Turkey is a beautiful, welcoming and modern country......I only wish more Muslim states would look to her example. |
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