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Happiness and respect: more in Korea or Japan?
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WavFunc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:10 am    Post subject: Happiness and respect: more in Korea or Japan? Reply with quote

I need some advice regarding this. I thought this topic would have been beaten to death in the history of this place so I did a search for relevant topics (using Google not the crappy search tab here) and didn't turn up much.

Advice from here would mean more to me as I'm a long timer (is almost three years enough to constitute a long timer?) in Korea making the great leap, not some fresh off the boat university graduate. Tonnes of information for the latter.

I'm more interested in comparing Korea to Japan and knowing whether or not I will be happier there. A lot of people are probably going to tell me that Japan is really expensive and that I won't be able to save as much money... I know this already, I'm more interested in what country is better for your sanity if you live there in the long term. I'm looking to find a country that isn't my own, where I can have a job that I don't mind (I like teaching) and just spend a long time there moving up the rungs. I was mistaken to think that could be done in Korea but I'm hoping that it can be done in Japan.

Anyway, I haven't secured a job yet for March/April of '10 in Japan but the hunt is going well. First day of rigourous applications and I've already secured two phone interviews. One of the major ALT companies is only hiring teachers from Korea right now and thats looking really promising. In any case, I'm determined to book a one way flight to Japan for March of '10 if it kills me.

So onto my questions. I have posted before but this is focusing on cultural differences, not job specific stuff.

Here it goes:

I think the reason I'm not that happy in Korea is because of the culture. I find it oppressive and bland. It was fine for the first year or so but now I feel like its a heavy weight that keeps me inside and immobile. Before I came to Korea I was a very outgoing, open and energetic person.

I still am, but have recently realised that it was the culture and lack thereof that kept me inside and the thought of doing anything "cultural" here was about as much of a turn off as going to nude-night at a local bingo club back home. I do love living abroad and am the kind of person who is well adjusted for that kind of thing, its just that large parts of Korean culture make me shake my head in disbelief and look at the floor.

Do you think Japanese culture is a culture that will have me looking up again? Is there a lot more about Japanese culture to respect, envy and even adopt? My research and interest in Japan has always pointed to 'yes' but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

I don't like old Koreans. Of course, I've met some lovely adjumma and some kind adjosshi, but for the most part the closer someone is to the age of 60 here the more they piss me off. I see them as the source of this society's problems. Does this share any similarities with Japanese culture? I don't think it does, but I am curious to know either way. Are older Japanese friendly and more open than older Koreans?

In my time here I've also realised that Koreans can be the most selfish people I've ever met in my entire life. Many Koreans are crude, inconsiderate, have a "me-first" attitude that is in part tied to age and in part to undeserved self-entitlement. Is Japanese culture like that in any way?

How are foreign English teachers seen in Japan? Are we seen as castaways from other countries? Asiaphiles? Or is there no universal concensus on English teachers in Japan like there is in Korea?

In comparison, do you find your dignity and human rights are respected more in Korea or more in Japan? I'm not %100 on this one. I've heard some things about Japan that turned me off, for example, that foreigners are not allowed to freely choose their own property. I've also heard of foreigners that got stopped by the police for ID checks every single day. On the flip side, foreigners in Japan are allowed to own their visa and it is much easier to work in fields other than teaching English (which I plan to do--eventually).

Thanks for answering. Smile
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Goku



Joined: 10 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel the same exact way.

I'm sorry, In many ways I love Korea and I was even an extreme apologist a year ago.

But it's my 2nd year. All the crap is falling from the sky... and I have to agree, Koreans are the most selfish people I've ever met in my life.

Everyone's selfish, and an element of it is good! but in my home country they HIDE it or they take steps to minimize the damage of their own selfishness. But the people I meet just step all over you, for ultimate selfishness. They don't fear the ramifications of messing with other people. Frankly, I've contemplated about killing people just to teach them a lesson that you treat people like shit... they will kill you. (I have the postal gene)

I prefer to be a nice guy, so this totally pisses me off. I like a harmonious society and kindness. I want everyone happy, working together. This society is quite the opposite. Everyone lives in their own world, and generally doesn't even care about others.

Look I'm not stupid, I know how to play the game. I'm quite popular back at home and everyone pretty much loves me. (I'm not a pushover either) I've always gotten free stuff at stores because I'm able to charm people. I'll walk into a dunkin donuts and get a bag of free donuts.... And I didn't live in some humbum suburb in the sticks. I'm talking I live in a cold ass city where the people are known to be "assholes".

But Korea takes the Cake.

The other day, this 20 something year old asshat gets on the bus. He doesn't have a dollar to pay the fare. So a nice generous woman gives him the money. The kid doesn't even bat an eye at her. He takes the money pays the bus driver, returns her change and sits down. I was CAREFULLY observing this kid. I was blown away. No thank you at all. I wanted to punch him in the face. Ingrate.

I've lost my sanity the last 3 days. I can't sleep. I have a lot of emotional resilience but I'm starting to lose my marbles at how this place is now. It's the exact opposite of utopia society. Friends don't contact me unless I have some affirmed plan to get them girls or go out. Nobody wants to hang out unless it's for some goddamn Englishee lesson or unless I pay for the meal. And the F***ing people have no sense of other people's existence. Nobody asks how I am, and they rant for f***ing hours about some boring ass topic. When I want to say something (relevant to them) they ignore my comment and talk about something else. (not an English thing either, they perfectly understand me)

There is no social tact.... The people just operate on a level of selfishness... on a IQ 20 level. Being selfish also means being smart about it. It annoys me because their abilities to socialize are far below anything I've seen... I'm thinking about ditching all my Korean friends. They are D-Bags anyways. Koreans don't appreciate friendship that much anyways. The women treat men like shit because they can. They think their pretty face rules the world (which pretty much does in this society... that's how primal and stupid men are)

Sorry for ranting. But like you.... I'm really interested in teaching in Japan. Right now, if I got paid 1 million won less for teaching in Japan, I might as well take it. The girls are probably a hell of a lot uglier and It'll be crawling wall to wall with Otaku losers, but I can deal with it. The Japanese are a lot more tactful.

I do like Korea though, don't get me wrong, I like how people are honest... but someone on this board once said... they lie when they shouldn't and are honest when they shouldn't.

It's like a senseless honesty to hurt people they will say. But they will lie about an important topic.
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anjinsan



Joined: 26 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few things froom my experience with Korea and Japan
(Korea 10 years, Japan many many visits, travelling, J. language and MA)

I often go to Japan as a "breather" from Korea. I love being in a place where people don't spit, puke, bump into you, snort, run red lights when you are in the crosswalk with your child in your arms, etc.
I also love the fact that Japan is the real-deal in terms of culture (evn taking into account the enormous nationalist surge in the mid 20th century); they know and love their traditions and don't care if anyone else does. (Korea in comparison in this department comes off as such a J. wannabe)

I also love the fact that the Japanese respect and follow laws and rules.
(Such a contrast from Koreans.)


I also love the fact that the Japanese expect you to speak Japanese--
"This is Japan dummy, you need to speak Japanese!"--which I like a lot, since I study Japanese and want to use and improve my abilities
(Sometimes tough to do in Seoul, where people would rather point and grunt than speak with you in their native Korean language.)
I view this Japanese willingness to talk with you--sans giggles, grins, etc--as a sign of respect for me as a thinking individual. So often, I feel like Koreans view any non-Korean speaking Korean as a novelty or a joke. (Just my opinion)
Simply put: I like going to lunch in Japan, ordering my food, asking for more barley tea, and paying the bill without being giggled at, pointed at, or "waaaaaa" d at. Makes me feel like a regular human being and makes everyday life so pleasant.


All in all, I just love the politeness of Japanese.
(Sure, folks will say that they are way polite but lacking in warmth--but I really don't care about warmth when I go to the supermarket or to get a coffee. I just want to do what I gotta do and move on.)

Plus a million cool touring acts from all over the world go to Japan.
can't say the same for Korea.
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WavFunc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know you guys can teach there, right? Haha. Seriously. Its hard to get a job there but once you do you'll probably feel like you've earned something. The pay isn't as great but thats a small price for peace of mind (in a country where you can try and find Nirvana).

I wanted to teach in Japan originally, got rejected by the JET programme and came to Korea instead. I gave Korea a real try, like the first replier, I, too, was an apologist right up until they pinched my last nerve.

I'm not a Japanophile but I know enough about it to know that its culture runs deep and is fabulous at every level. I've always liked it. There is a very good reason why a large percentage of the world loves or has benefited from Japanese culture, even if they pretend to hate it (Koreans).

The apologist in me still forgives Koreans. They got dished a lot of crap in their history. No one in their right mind expects Koreans to have caught up in every way given the history of the small peninsula. But understanding why the situation is as it is, is one thing. Wanting to be a part of it is another. I know why Korea is the way it is but I choose not to live here anymore because the place can drive the most sanest person straight up the wall if it is allowed.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. Very soothing, I needed to feel like I made the right choice and now I'm really beginning to feel that way. Moving to Japan is a big risk in terms of money and in terms of failure but its a risk I need to take.

Anjinsan, so Japanese people really try to level with you in their own language? That has been one of the biggest learning blocks in my struggle to learn Korean. I have tried very, very, very hard to get my head into this language and have failed. I guess I am partly to blame, but to be honest, I have had nothing but negative reinforcement since I began learning it. My tutor focused on my pronunciation until she thought it was understandable to every Korean... To this day, there is still the odd time that I walk into a convenience store and say ____ 주새요 only to have an "EH!!?!!?!?!" thrown back to me until I need to point.

I know it isn't my pronunciation but its just that they're not listening or are so tied up in nationalistic nonsense that they're hardwired to believe that their language is on such a high plateau that no foreigner could even dream of perfecting it. Just like we can't have four seasons, handle gochujjang or learn 한글.

I am sick and tired of this mono-think. The thing that keeps getting me harrassed in the cafeteria, every single day since I've been here, because I don't eat meat. They just can't get over it, drop it and leave it alone. The reason behind it that pisses me off is the knowledge that they don't respect me simply because of where I was born and because I can never be in the in-group.

They tolerate me, are polite to me, but are so programmed to believe the party line that they refuse to integrate with concepts outside their little collective bubble. Some Koreans are way better than others, true, but speaking in terms of generalities the average Korean is brainwashed into living in a thought bubble so small that it is incomprehensible to foreigners for good reason. I still struggle to understand all the little idiosyncracies and behaviours I see here.

I could go on and on all day. Safe to say, I do like Korea. If you can believe that after what I wrote. I know some good people here (that aren't foreigners) and some good places. There are some things I really like about it. But my time is up. There is an expiration date to how long a foreigner can enjoy this country and right now I'm drinking spoiled milk. Some people's expiration date may be later than others, but everyone has one.

The thing about Japan is that I think it just may be the place with no expiration date. Its a country with people in it. It has many cultures and alternatives. Its clean, admirable and unique. There are good and bad things about it.

Korea is a country with people in it. It has one culture. Its not very clean and it is definitely unique, though in this case I think thats an insult. There are good and bad things about it but the more time you spend here the more bad you see.

Time to move on!


Last edited by WavFunc on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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roybetis1



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Location: Not near a beach like my recruiter promised.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the above was opposite in my experience, 10 years in Japan, more than 4 in Korea.
I got the "look at the silly foreigner trying to speak our language" much worse in Japan than here, and I was very good in Japanese. Here I still get that attitude but it's more because (imho) Korean is a lot more difficult to pronounce correctly than Japanese. Koreans really don't have that much experience dealing with foreigners, a lot of the racism we face here is due to ignorance. No experience with foreigners plus anything that might be a little different from the norm means the automatic "I don't understand" switch.
Japan, however has been saturated with Western culture for decades, every Japanese has at some point come in contact with someone from another culture. Yet I found the day to day racism in Japan to be overwhelming and much worse than here.
Korea has problems with xenophobia, but Japan knows better and has chosen to be racist. The (former?) mayor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara openly referred to Chinese people as "dogs" and proposed putting foreigners in "camps" in cases of civil disrest or natural disaster. He was re elected by a landslide.
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP



Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too don't bother with K friends anymore for most of the reasons Goku listed.
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WavFunc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roybetis1 wrote:
All the above was opposite in my experience, 10 years in Japan, more than 4 in Korea.
I got the "look at the silly foreigner trying to speak our language" much worse in Japan than here, and I was very good in Japanese. Here I still get that attitude but it's more because (imho) Korean is a lot more difficult to pronounce correctly than Japanese. Koreans really don't have that much experience dealing with foreigners, a lot of the racism we face here is due to ignorance. No experience with foreigners plus anything that might be a little different from the norm means the automatic "I don't understand" switch.
Japan, however has been saturated with Western culture for decades, every Japanese has at some point come in contact with someone from another culture. Yet I found the day to day racism in Japan to be overwhelming and much worse than here.
Korea has problems with xenophobia, but Japan knows better and has chosen to be racist. The (former?) mayor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara openly referred to Chinese people as "dogs" and proposed putting foreigners in "camps" in cases of civil disrest or natural disaster. He was re elected by a landslide.


But at the end of the week while you were in Japan, could you make a list of all the annoying outbursts you experienced? The impression I get of Japan is that there is an underbelly of racism and xenophobia but it isn't pasted all over the walls like it is here. You're not going to get yelled at, gawked at, pushed into a corner or made uncomfortable like you are here.

True it exists... but if my understanding of Japanese xenophobia is correct, I'd prefer it over Korean's xenophobia. Because I don't have to hear it on the news, see it in personal interactions. Its under the surface. I can choose to acknowledge it or ignore it there... Here its right up in my face.

...and Japanese culture is actually something you can be able to look up to in a lot of ways. I admire it. There is very little I look up to here.
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP



Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wavfunc, I've always wanted too ask you - do you collapse in the presence of an observer?

Are your particular values interdependant on the exact conditions of any observable event including all atmospheric conditions that might fluctuate given the position and state of any apperatus and even air pressure in the test environment etc?

If you can answer me and finally 'out yourself' for what you truly are, I will become a very rich man overnight.
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WavFunc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote:
Wavfunc, I've always wanted too ask you - do you collapse in the presence of an observer?

Are your particular values interdependant on the exact conditions of any observable event including all atmospheric conditions that might fluctuate given the position and state of any apperatus and even air pressure in the test environment etc?

If you can answer me and finally 'out yourself' for what you truly are, I will become a very rich man overnight.


To be honest, it all really depends on which world you are in. Smile
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP



Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WavFunc wrote:
DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote:
Wavfunc, I've always wanted too ask you - do you collapse in the presence of an observer?

Are your particular values interdependant on the exact conditions of any observable event including all atmospheric conditions that might fluctuate given the position and state of any apperatus and even air pressure in the test environment etc?

If you can answer me and finally 'out yourself' for what you truly are, I will become a very rich man overnight.


To be honest, it all really depends on which world you are in. Smile



GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! (Tears hair out.)
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WavFunc



Joined: 23 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote:
WavFunc wrote:
DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote:
Wavfunc, I've always wanted too ask you - do you collapse in the presence of an observer?

Are your particular values interdependant on the exact conditions of any observable event including all atmospheric conditions that might fluctuate given the position and state of any apperatus and even air pressure in the test environment etc?

If you can answer me and finally 'out yourself' for what you truly are, I will become a very rich man overnight.


To be honest, it all really depends on which world you are in. Smile



GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!! (Tears hair out.)


But in some place, you're actually tearing your hair back in...

......

I'll stop!
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roybetis1



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Location: Not near a beach like my recruiter promised.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No...that was actully what I was trying to say. The racism is much more explicit and in your face in Japan. I was repeatedly referrred to as "that gaijin" by my co workers and on the street, even after several people informed them they found the word offensive. I don't want to get into another argument over wether the word "gaijin" is offensive, but if more than a third of the people at your school find the word offensive, isn't that enough reason to switch to a more polite word?
Off the top of my head, I remember the sign reminding people to hide their PIN numbers at the ATM depicted a blonde haired, blue eyed man peering over the shoulder of a Japanese.
My friend's wife was fired from her job at a department store because the boss thought since she had a foreign sounding last name she couldn't speak Japanese (she is Japanese).
News reports of foreign crime waves were commonplace, including soundbites from politicians.
On at least 2 occasions high profile crimes, a bank robbery and that kid who decapitated his classmate and left the head at the school gates, were initially blamed on foreigners. They were later both found to be Japanese.
There was massive hysteria about acts of hooligansim, including what to be done with all the half Japanese children from raped japanese women, ahead of the soccer world cup games.
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Zulethe



Joined: 04 Jul 2008

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goku wrote:
I feel the same exact way.

I'm sorry, In many ways I love Korea and I was even an extreme apologist a year ago.

But it's my 2nd year. All the crap is falling from the sky... and I have to agree, Koreans are the most selfish people I've ever met in my life.

Everyone's selfish, and an element of it is good! but in my home country they HIDE it or they take steps to minimize the damage of their own selfishness. But the people I meet just step all over you, for ultimate selfishness. They don't fear the ramifications of messing with other people. Frankly, I've contemplated about killing people just to teach them a lesson that you treat people like shit... they will kill you. (I have the postal gene)

I prefer to be a nice guy, so this totally pisses me off. I like a harmonious society and kindness. I want everyone happy, working together. This society is quite the opposite. Everyone lives in their own world, and generally doesn't even care about others.

Look I'm not stupid, I know how to play the game. I'm quite popular back at home and everyone pretty much loves me. (I'm not a pushover either) I've always gotten free stuff at stores because I'm able to charm people. I'll walk into a dunkin donuts and get a bag of free donuts.... And I didn't live in some humbum suburb in the sticks. I'm talking I live in a cold ass city where the people are known to be "assholes".

But Korea takes the Cake.

The other day, this 20 something year old asshat gets on the bus. He doesn't have a dollar to pay the fare. So a nice generous woman gives him the money. The kid doesn't even bat an eye at her. He takes the money pays the bus driver, returns her change and sits down. I was CAREFULLY observing this kid. I was blown away. No thank you at all. I wanted to punch him in the face. Ingrate.

I've lost my sanity the last 3 days. I can't sleep. I have a lot of emotional resilience but I'm starting to lose my marbles at how this place is now. It's the exact opposite of utopia society. Friends don't contact me unless I have some affirmed plan to get them girls or go out. Nobody wants to hang out unless it's for some goddamn Englishee lesson or unless I pay for the meal. And the F***ing people have no sense of other people's existence. Nobody asks how I am, and they rant for f***ing hours about some boring ass topic. When I want to say something (relevant to them) they ignore my comment and talk about something else. (not an English thing either, they perfectly understand me)

There is no social tact.... The people just operate on a level of selfishness... on a IQ 20 level. Being selfish also means being smart about it. It annoys me because their abilities to socialize are far below anything I've seen... I'm thinking about ditching all my Korean friends. They are D-Bags anyways. Koreans don't appreciate friendship that much anyways. The women treat men like shit because they can. They think their pretty face rules the world (which pretty much does in this society... that's how primal and stupid men are)

Sorry for ranting. But like you.... I'm really interested in teaching in Japan. Right now, if I got paid 1 million won less for teaching in Japan, I might as well take it. The girls are probably a hell of a lot uglier and It'll be crawling wall to wall with Otaku losers, but I can deal with it. The Japanese are a lot more tactful.

I do like Korea though, don't get me wrong, I like how people are honest... but someone on this board once said... they lie when they shouldn't and are honest when they shouldn't.

It's like a senseless honesty to hurt people they will say. But they will lie about an important topic.


Wow, good rant man. I usually don't even open these posts anymore because the questions have been asked and answered a million times.

Would you rather die by a single swift gun shot to the head (Japan). Or would you like to have your skin slowly peeled from your body for days at a time until you die from a hideous skin infection (Korea).

Any questions?
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anjinsan



Joined: 26 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Korea has problems with xenophobia, but Japan knows better and has chosen to be racist."

Dead on roybetis! I didn't want to mention this in my previous post, hoping someone would bring it up. We gotta remember that Korea got all this "Pure Blood" nonsense from Japan who got a lot of it from Nazi Germany (look up the history of the innane blood/personality type
idea). Funny how--during WWII Japan had its eyes set on first conquering Asia, then enslaving the "White" nations (something they were very careful to keep hidden from their German Allies--Ha!!!.)
Yeah, the Japanese have been hardcore racists in the past, and these folks from then ain't dead yet. Think its hard marrying a Korean; try doing the same in Japan.

Japan is for the Japanese; there's no doubt about that.

OP: I totally feel your frustration for Korea; but, I do think you'll find
a lot of frustrations in Japan as well. The Japanese are masters at appearances (something Koreans try to do, but fail miserably at).
How is it that a nation who was so absolutely horrible during WWII--Nanjing, Unit 731, Comfort Women (from many Asian countries, not just Korea)--come out smelling like a rose, with Westerners dedicating their lives to Japanese martial arts, the Japanese tea ceremony, etc.????
Answer: darn good (government-sponsored) PR on the part of Japan.
Heck, Westerners love Japan so much, they think all of NE Asia is just like Japan. Sorta funny to go back to the US and see doctors and lawyers and professors cavorting about in Aikido dojos bowing to the "kamiza"
(Shinto spirit shrine of the dojo), wearing hakamas (samurai-style over-sized trousers), and practicing "the Japanese sword"--the bloody history of which they have absolutely no idea about (try to find "Mimizuka"
in any Kyoto map with a good explanation of the 30,000 noses and ears
buried there from the Imjin Wars in Korea--it ain't on any map.)

The secret to truly understanding and respecting Japanese culture is knowing how darn bloody, psychotic, and cruel its traditions really
are. Funny that a dude who cuts off people's heads for a living could find such ephemeral beauty in the cherry blossoms as they float away on the wind. That is Japan though.

I think you'll enjoy your time there, but you also will have your eyes opened a great deal more. As the book of Ecclesiastes reminds us,
"Wisdom will not make you happy."
I still love Japan anyway though.

Plus they have killer food!!!! (No pun intended)
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Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anjinsan wrote:


All in all, I just love the politeness of Japanese.
(Sure, folks will say that they are way polite but lacking in warmth--but I really don't care about warmth when I go to the supermarket or to get a coffee. I just want to do what I gotta do and move on.)

Plus a million cool touring acts from all over the world go to Japan.
can't say the same for Korea.


Correct Brackthorne.
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