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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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 Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| ISTR that 16 year olds can't enlist. |
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DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Electron cloud
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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I'll tell you very briefly why the millitary is messed up.
They are a regimented group of trained killers who have been told by a bunch of pc numbnuts to act like they aren't. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| If the US had stayed out of wars the past 50 years, there might be streets of gold and buildings of crystal surrounded by an impenetrable wall around the entire country. But NOooo, we had to elect partisan warhawks in the name of Jesus. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Why the military is screwed up |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| This is a rot that infects the military and leads to all kinds of unecessary death and destruction. From Abu Graib to Hasan. |
ddeubel, check out these two articles that seem to support your thesis.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/30794989/the_fort_carson_murder_spree/1
| Rolling Stone wrote: |
| At the age of 12, Eastridge had shot and killed his best friend while playing a video game and pleaded guilty to reckless homicide. His juvenile record should have disqualified him from service, but the Army � hard-pressed for new recruits to fight in Iraq � issued him a waiver in 2003. |
http://www.denverpost.com/washington/ci_10996605
| denverpost wrote: |
As a child in Kentucky, he killed a 12-year-old friend, Billy Bowman, with a shotgun. The shooting was treated as accidental, a conclusion Billy's father doubted. Kenneth had previously shot Billy "many times" with a BB gun, Bill Bowman said. "I told the judge, there's no doubt in my mind we'll see this boy again."
In 2006, Eastridge was accused of menacing his girlfriend by grabbing her neck and pointing a .45-caliber handgun at her head, a charge that was pending when Fort Carson sent him to a second round of war in Iraq. |
This soldier went on to murder civilians in Iraq and took part in the murder of a fellow US soldier in Colorado and the robbery and stabbing of an American female civilian in Colorado. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Reggie. Yes, it is sad and there can be a lot done to help stop many of these tragedies from happening.
I wish I had more time to cite the plethora of evidence that exists out there. Both from the military itself (right now - it has the lowest standards EVER since the creation of a "professional" force).
What is even worse is how the military has its head in the ground about this. Even the heads of training, generals, stick to the line that "the military is stronger than ever, the best ever...rarara. ".
But higher standards are just part of the problem. It also is about the "culture of violence" that exists in the U.S. military. It is like a cult. Watching / playing violent video games to no end. Talking bravado and glorifying guns. Childish bullying and bravado behaviors supported by superiors. The lack of educating the force about inclusiveness. Fights, drinking seen as just "part of being a soldier" etc...
Many might say -- "well, they are in the military stupid! What do you expect? Choir boys?" But that is just the same old denial attitude that helps perpetuate the mess. The military culture is rotting because of the lower standards AND that many who are there, are there for the wrong reasons (like Hasan).
Let's not keep kidding ourselves that it is a "professional" force. It is a conscripted force but instead of it being done "fairly", members are chosen by the U.S. treasury and the almighty waving of fist fulls of dollar bills. That fact has to be confronted and I consider it a travesty that we are almost back into Napoleonic times - a civilian force of the poor, marauding across lands and held up only by the facade of a uniform.
If I were an anthropologist from Mars, I'd find big parallels between how gangs recruit with guns, glamor, tattoos, dreams and delirium and how the military recruits.
PS. CentralCali -- never meant that 16 year olds could sign up (but 17 year olds can). I meant that recruiters have access to all H.S. students - no child left behind. Like selling candy to babies.
DD
http://eflclassroom.com |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| If the US had stayed out of wars the past 50 years, there might be streets of gold and buildings of crystal surrounded by an impenetrable wall around the entire country. But NOooo, we had to elect partisan warhawks in the name of Jesus. |
Okay, this post was funny. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| They are a regimented group of trained killers |
Can we please drop this meme? I've never heard it applied to the various police forces in the US and they, also, are trained to kill. The idea for both entities is to protect their country. It's not "I'm going to go out and be a killer!" |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="ddeubel"]
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Well Gopher, I won't pretend to be a military expert. However, I do have many friends in the military and even those as high ranking as a Major who also off the record vouches for how bad it is. I don't judge people - I judge ideas (organizations, abstractions, ideologies, beliefs etc....) |
I do judge people, based on the evidence they present, and while I won't call you a liar, I will say that I have rarely seen you bring anything like intellectual honesty to a debate. The axe you carry around to grind and your infantile, simplistic world view don't allow you to do that. My question is, do you understand this about yourself or are you clueless about the lamentable gaps in your grasp of how things really are? Is it a determined ignorance, or its slightly less harmful cousin? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| They are a regimented group of trained killers |
Can we please drop this meme? |
It's not a meme, it's the truth.
| CentralCali wrote: |
| I've never heard it applied to the various police forces in the US and they, also, are trained to kill. |
A properly functioning police officer will avoid killing outside of situations where innocent life is not in immediate danger. The same is not true of soldiers. Police officers exist to keep order. Soldiers, ultimately, exist to kill on government command. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Soldiers, ultimately, exist to kill on government command. |
War is hell.
That truth cannot be legislated away anymore than war itself can be. So, I guess I agree. Soldiers exist to kill on gov't command. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Fox"]
| CentralCali wrote: |
| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| They are a regimented group of trained killers |
Can we please drop this meme? |
It's not a meme, it's the truth.
| CentralCali wrote: |
| I've never heard it applied to the various police forces in the US and they, also, are trained to kill. |
Peurile emotionalism. An army that is not trained to kill is the Peace Corps, which also has its place, but that's beside the point.
As peurile as the bumper that appeared in 2003 - "War is not the answer." Really? Doesn't that depend on what the question is?
Whatever. Kumbayah.
(Kuros - excellent point.) |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| They are a regimented group of trained killers |
Can we please drop this meme? |
It's not a meme, it's the truth. |
No, i'ts a meme.
| Quote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| I've never heard it applied to the various police forces in the US and they, also, are trained to kill. |
A properly functioning police officer will avoid killing outside of situations where innocent life is not in immediate danger. The same is not true of soldiers. Police officers exist to keep order. Soldiers, ultimately, exist to kill on government command. |
Actually, the same is true of a soldier. American soldiers, at least, are supposed to obey the laws of war, such as the Geneva Conventions, and also the US laws that apply to their conduct, such as the UCMJ. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| They are a regimented group of trained killers |
Can we please drop this meme? |
It's not a meme, it's the truth. |
No, i'ts a meme.
| Quote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| I've never heard it applied to the various police forces in the US and they, also, are trained to kill. |
A properly functioning police officer will avoid killing outside of situations where innocent life is not in immediate danger. The same is not true of soldiers. Police officers exist to keep order. Soldiers, ultimately, exist to kill on government command. |
Actually, the same is true of a soldier. American soldiers, at least, are supposed to obey the laws of war, such as the Geneva Conventions, and also the US laws that apply to their conduct, such as the UCMJ. |
What you say is true, CC. But even you must admit its different to apply US laws to US soldiers stationed in, say, Iraq, than it is to apply MI and US laws to US police officers stationed in Detriot.
I had a (liberal) friend who once argued that when a soldier kills in a combat zone, it was murder. I rebutted that it was not murder, it was a killing (although it could be murder if it violated Geneva or the UCMJ). Murder is more than just a killing, aborrant as a killing alone often may be. Murder is a violation of the existing social pact and a threat to internal order and the civilization itself, in addition to everything else. Accordingly, when a soldier kills another soldier in open combat, it is not (likely) murder. Admittedly, this distinction can get very messy very quickly, however, especially in the case of civil wars and internal strife (in which case war is hell, squared). |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| DWAEJIMORIGUKBAP wrote: |
| They are a regimented group of trained killers |
Can we please drop this meme? |
It's not a meme, it's the truth. |
No, i'ts a meme. |
No, it's not. It's something I said in an earlier discussion of this topic that a few other people have agreed with. That's all. It's not a meme, it's an opinion, based on conditions in the real world.
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Quote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| I've never heard it applied to the various police forces in the US and they, also, are trained to kill. |
A properly functioning police officer will avoid killing outside of situations where innocent life is not in immediate danger. The same is not true of soldiers. Police officers exist to keep order. Soldiers, ultimately, exist to kill on government command. |
Actually, the same is true of a soldier. American soldiers, at least, are supposed to obey the laws of war, such as the Geneva Conventions, and also the US laws that apply to their conduct, such as the UCMJ. |
The fact that soldiers are supposed to obey the laws of war is irrelevent to the point I'm making, CentralCali. If a police officer is functioning properly, they under no circumstances take a life when the safety of innocents is not in immediate danger. The same is not true of soliders. Geneva Convetion or no, it is within the purview of a soldier's duty to kill when the safety of innocents is not immediately threatened. This is a difference. A large difference.
I don't know why you're so enamored of soldiers. Perhaps you were one yourself. Perhaps someone in your family is one. Perhaps you just really like the army. Regardless of why, however, it's clear you suffer an emotional reaction when it is pointed out that soldiers are paid killers. I'm sorry for that; the purpose of the statement is not to upset you. None the less, it's true, and I'm going to keep saying it. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: |
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There is no such thing as war anymore. There is only police action. There won't be another war again until:
A. The aftermath of the nuclear holocaust restarts everything and new societies emerge over many years and repeat a cycle
B. We confront aliens
C. The Bible and/or Koran are proven to be true |
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