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Culture influences EU perceptions toward Turks
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject: Culture influences EU perceptions toward Turks Reply with quote

Culture influences EU perceptions toward Turks

Tuesday, November 17, 2009
ISTANBUL - H�rriyet Daily News



AP photo

Cultural factors are among the main elements influencing European perceptions of Turks, according a recent study conducted by a prominent Turkish university.

The research, made public Monday night by the European Studies Center of Bosphorus University, also showed that younger generations in Europe are more supportive of Turkey�s entry to the European Union than are older generations.

The study was based on a poll conducted among 5,000 people in Germany, France, Britain, Spain and Poland between August and September 2009.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=culture-influence-eu-perceptions-toward-turks-2009-11-17
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youtuber



Joined: 13 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently France and Germany are the biggest nay-sayers to Turkey's admission.

For economic reasons, I think that Turkey's admission would be good. Turkey is a bridge between Asia and Europe, something which no other EU country can offer.

And the muslims in Turkey seem to be more moderate and not as hardcore as other Islamic countries. So that needs to be considered.

I think that the primary reason that France and Germany are worried is that their borders would be open to a flood of Turkish muslims that may be seen as a threat to the French and German culture and way of life; and I think this is a valid reason for concern.

As we know, the French and Germans are extremely proud of their cultures, so perhaps they want to avoid future civil conflicts by preventing Turkey's admission.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkey will not join the EU because it is muslim with a large population. Final answer.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice to Turkey (well, a single piece of advice among many other things) is to change the English name of Istanbul back to Constantinople. The Turkish name would still be İstanbul. Lots of places are called by different names in different languages (Aachen - Aix-la-Chapelle, Helsinki - Helsingfors, K�ln - Cologne).

Iran needs to change its name back to Persia too.

Oh, and Kitchener should change its name back to Berlin.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Turkey is a bridge between Asia and Europe, something which no other EU country can offer.


What does this actually mean? What benefits would this bridge offer us? Besides unquantifiable meaningless garbage about winning Muslim 'hearts and minds'?

One thing is for sure. Upon Turkish entry into the EU, we would have a very porous border and would be open to mass migration from Iran, Iraq, Syria and the Caucasus. Thanks, but no thanks.
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: Culture influences EU perceptions toward Turks Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:

The research, made public Monday night by the European Studies Center of Bosphorus University, also showed that younger generations in Europe are more supportive of Turkey�s entry to the European Union than are older generations.

The study was based on a poll conducted among 5,000 people in Germany, France, Britain, Spain and Poland between August and September 2009.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=culture-influence-eu-perceptions-toward-turks-2009-11-17


A possibility is that older Europeans are better at geography than the younger generation. As Sarkozy says, "Turkey is in Asia Minor not Europe." Turkey is simply not a European country with a large population which by and large is not European in character. It would be cultural suicide for the Europeans to bring the Turks into the fold.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Turkey is a bridge between Asia and Europe, something which no other EU country can offer.


What does this actually mean? What benefits would this bridge offer us? Besides unquantifiable meaningless garbage about winning Muslim 'hearts and minds'?


I'm a bit surprised - I thought you would have given that issue a bit more thought. Here are a few off the top of my head: oil and gas from Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan. A strategic advantage in many Russian republics that speak a Turkic language, northwestern Iran, southern Ukraine, Moldova, Mongolia and even into northwest China. Further control of the Black Sea and the gateway between it and the Mediterranean. NATO's largest army. A more unified voice against countries like Iran. A further incentive for countries like Georgia to resolve border issues with Russia in order to join the union themselves.

Opposing membership is fine but let's not pretend that the EU wouldn't obtain some serious strategic advantages from having Turkey as a member.
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mithridates wrote:
bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Turkey is a bridge between Asia and Europe, something which no other EU country can offer.


What does this actually mean? What benefits would this bridge offer us? Besides unquantifiable meaningless garbage about winning Muslim 'hearts and minds'?


I'm a bit surprised - I thought you would have given that issue a bit more thought. Here are a few off the top of my head: oil and gas from Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan. A strategic advantage in many Russian republics that speak a Turkic language, northwestern Iran, southern Ukraine, Moldova, Mongolia and even into northwest China. Further control of the Black Sea and the gateway between it and the Mediterranean. NATO's largest army. A more unified voice against countries like Iran. A further incentive for countries like Georgia to resolve border issues with Russia in order to join the union themselves.

Opposing membership is fine but let's not pretend that the EU wouldn't obtain some serious strategic advantages from having Turkey as a member.


Your arguments for including Turkey in the EU are actually good arguments for opposing EU membership. And what does Turkey in the EU have to do with Mongolia and southern Ukraine?
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ytuque wrote:
mithridates wrote:
bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Turkey is a bridge between Asia and Europe, something which no other EU country can offer.


What does this actually mean? What benefits would this bridge offer us? Besides unquantifiable meaningless garbage about winning Muslim 'hearts and minds'?


I'm a bit surprised - I thought you would have given that issue a bit more thought. Here are a few off the top of my head: oil and gas from Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan. A strategic advantage in many Russian republics that speak a Turkic language, northwestern Iran, southern Ukraine, Moldova, Mongolia and even into northwest China. Further control of the Black Sea and the gateway between it and the Mediterranean. NATO's largest army. A more unified voice against countries like Iran. A further incentive for countries like Georgia to resolve border issues with Russia in order to join the union themselves.

Opposing membership is fine but let's not pretend that the EU wouldn't obtain some serious strategic advantages from having Turkey as a member.


Your arguments for including Turkey in the EU are actually good arguments for opposing EU membership. And what does Turkey in the EU have to do with Mongolia and southern Ukraine?


Mongolia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan-%C3%96lgiy_Province

Southern Ukraine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
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Leslie Cheswyck



Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mith,

Not all of us are as enamored of your linguistics hobby as you are. So that's totally WTF-ville. And the other stuff you're plugging by way of "advantage" amounts to nothing more than a signing bonus on an otherwise totally sh*tty deal.

Sincerely
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:
Mith,

Not all of us are as enamored of your linguistics hobby as you are. So that's totally WTF-ville. And the other stuff you're plugging by way of "advantage" amounts to nothing more than a signing bonus on an otherwise totally sh*tty deal.


Come on Leslie, you're usually better than this. Your reading comprehension here is what is totally WTF-ville. Read my post again. What I've written is in response to the claim that EU membership is about winning hearts and minds in the Muslim world.

In other words,

I didn't say that the EU should accept Turkey as a member, I said there are real strategic reasons for considering it. Whether they balance out the negatives or not is the issue at hand.

The strategic advantages the EU is after is more about finding ways to keep countries like Russia from turning the gas off in the winter.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28515983/


See the BTC and Nabucco pipelines as examples.

As for your "linguistics hobby" comment:

https://www.cia.gov/careers/opportunities/clandestine/core-collector.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-04-19-language_N.htm

The CIA pays up to $35,000 in signing bonuses for agents that speak those languages, one of which is Turkish. I'm not talking about hobbies here.

And once more to make sure you understand:

I'm not saying the EU should accept Turkey as a member.

I'm neutral on the issue.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mithridates wrote:
bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Turkey is a bridge between Asia and Europe, something which no other EU country can offer.


What does this actually mean? What benefits would this bridge offer us? Besides unquantifiable meaningless garbage about winning Muslim 'hearts and minds'?


I'm a bit surprised - I thought you would have given that issue a bit more thought. Here are a few off the top of my head: oil and gas from Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan. A strategic advantage in many Russian republics that speak a Turkic language, northwestern Iran, southern Ukraine, Moldova, Mongolia and even into northwest China. Further control of the Black Sea and the gateway between it and the Mediterranean. NATO's largest army. A more unified voice against countries like Iran. A further incentive for countries like Georgia to resolve border issues with Russia in order to join the union themselves.

Opposing membership is fine but let's not pretend that the EU wouldn't obtain some serious strategic advantages from having Turkey as a member.


Most of those advantages can be gained without allowing Turkey into the EU. Even when Turkish entry is rejected, we will still enjoy good economic relations. Let's not forget, they need our market more than we need theirs.

I also think your point about 'unified voice' against Iran is highly dubious as Turkey turns increasingly Islamic.
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mithridates



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
mithridates wrote:
bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Turkey is a bridge between Asia and Europe, something which no other EU country can offer.


What does this actually mean? What benefits would this bridge offer us? Besides unquantifiable meaningless garbage about winning Muslim 'hearts and minds'?


I'm a bit surprised - I thought you would have given that issue a bit more thought. Here are a few off the top of my head: oil and gas from Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan. A strategic advantage in many Russian republics that speak a Turkic language, northwestern Iran, southern Ukraine, Moldova, Mongolia and even into northwest China. Further control of the Black Sea and the gateway between it and the Mediterranean. NATO's largest army. A more unified voice against countries like Iran. A further incentive for countries like Georgia to resolve border issues with Russia in order to join the union themselves.

Opposing membership is fine but let's not pretend that the EU wouldn't obtain some serious strategic advantages from having Turkey as a member.


Most of those advantages can be gained without allowing Turkey into the EU. Even when Turkish entry is rejected, we will still enjoy good economic relations. Let's not forget, they need our market more than we need theirs.


That may be true.

Quote:
I also think your point about 'unified voice' against Iran is highly dubious as Turkey turns increasingly Islamic.


I think Turkey's turning towards other countries has more to do with 1) a foreign policy based on trying to get along with everyone (kind of like Kazakhstan or Qatar), and 2) being annoyed with the long membership process. A long process is a good thing though as Turkey's nowhere close to qualifying. They don't even allow people to watch YouTube and have that silly law about turkishness. I think it's just as likely that Turkey will decide that it doesn't want to be a member either, but in the meantime carrying out reforms in line with EU regulations can only be a good thing even if done partially.
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think Turkey needs to progress when it comes to democracy and human rights, and that's what many of the youth of Europe think. Turkey has made a lot of progress, but it still has a long way to go. It doesn't mean Europe cannot open some more chapters paving the way for Turkey to get closer to membership. Turkey has to make good on opening up culturally to the Kurds. The secular Turks have to abandon the old European style of suppressing minorities and imposing a national identity. Ataturk wanted to impose Turkish nationalism and secularism.

He helped modernize Turkey, but the Kurdish problem eventually blew up, and a country that suppresses minorities on that scale can't be admitted. Of course, others suppress minorities like gypsies in the EU.
Turkey has made many reforms. I think people know that, but it has a long way to go. I wouldn't be in a hurry to admit them, but I think they should be told they will get there the more they progress. The somewhat religious government has been more democratic than the secularists. You would think those pro-European types would be more modern and democratic. Yet, they are stuck in the Europe that Ataturk conceived, it appears.
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youtuber



Joined: 13 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Turkey were to really become a successful economic power with a good social system (though I don't know how), then perhaps Turkey, as an EU state, would be a draw for some of the disenfranchised Muslims in the Western EU states.

Just a theory.
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