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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mc_jc wrote: |
I think the one thing that distinguishes Korea from the US is that the US doesn't base immigration law on popular fears and assumptions that are spread in the Korean media.
It goes where the money is. But it also has way more of an uncontrolled immigration policy and one reason the recent immigration reform bill was scuttled was because of those popular fears and assumptions spread in the American media.
Nor do US legislators invite open racists to encourage policy changes on Capitol Hill.
No, they invite closet racists, or people with an "anti-illegal immigration agenda".
Also, the US has Affirmative Action/ Equal Opportunity laws where an employer can't discriminate against a person because of their age, race or preference. Also there is Civil Rights legislation that prohibits major acts of public discrimination from happening.
Aside from racial profiling by the police, our criminal justice system, bank loans, housing discrimination, pizza drivers taking a black persons pizza last, minorities not being able to catch cabs, and typecasting in Hollywood you are absolutely right. Major discrimination does not happen. Any other proclamations on how racism in America is dead?
especially with those news expos�s that continually paint foreigners as drug abusing thieves. If such things were to appear in the US newsmedia, the ACLU would have a field day.
Ever watch FOXNEWS coverage on illegal immigration and the Mexican drug cartels? Ever read an op-ed by Anti-Immigration voices say the Washington Post? It happens all the time.
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strange_brew
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I can't even believe that people are trying to claim that Korea is less racially discriminatory in its policies than countries such as Canada and the US. It's obvious it is, however, there is a major reason for this. How long have Canada and the US had to come to grips with a multi cultural society? A lot longer than Korea, that's for sure. One would hope and wish that a place such as Korea could learn from past mistakes in other countries, but that generally doesn't happen with any country. Korea is going through growing pains, and it makes it a huge pain in our asses to deal with the crap. However, that's how it is, and it will change...eventually. We need to keep making requests and demands, and eventually, things will change. If they don't, Korea will hurt itself in the end in this ever globalising world. For me, it won't matter, I and my fiancee will be heading back to a world that accepts our relationship as is in about a year and a half. I don't want to have to put up with Korea's growing pains. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Xerapis wrote: |
ALLOWED to teach? Are you serious?
Maybe this is some bizarre use of the word..I've never heard of people being ALLOWED to work. You interview, you're evaluated, you're OFFERED A JOB BY THAT COMPANY.
Or they DON'T offer you a job.
Yes, a job offer is an invitation. They offer, you accept or reject.
Saying that we are ALLOWED to teach is insulting. You drew a distinction between an invitation and permission that is offensive and demeaning. Now feel free to play some kind of dictionary semantics. Here, you can choose from the list below.
ALLOW:
1. to give permission to or for; permit: to allow a student to be absent; No swimming allowed.
2. to let have; give as one's share; grant as one's right: to allow a person $100 for expenses.
3. to permit by neglect, oversight, or the like: to allow a door to remain open.
4. to admit; acknowledge; concede: to allow a claim.
5. to take into consideration, as by adding or subtracting; set apart: to allow an hour for changing trains. |
Forget the requirements we have to pass for getting this job then?
Forget those 100 teachers who were told they had a job and then shortly before coming were told "sorry we don't have a job for you."?
Unless one received a personal letter from the ROK asking for him or her by name, he was not invited by the government. You APPLY for a job, you aren't invited (unless you are some famous big-shot or something). And you either are accepted, or you aren't. Or as those teachers found out, you are accepted...and then you are rejected.
Bottom line. Korea decides who gets to teach here and who doesn't. Sounds like "allowing" to me.
Anyway regardless of what semantic games you wish to play, the people that are responsible for "inviting" him are not responsible for his problems at the bank. |
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Xerapis
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Xerapis wrote: |
| You interview, you're evaluated, you're OFFERED A JOB BY THAT COMPANY. |
Forget the requirements we have to pass for getting this job then?
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Forget how to read what I wrote?
I never argued that the people who hired him are responsible for his bank problems. Don't put words in my mouth.
I take exception to your insulting assertion that we are ALLOWED to work, not INVITED. Yes, there are requirements and qualifications. As there are for any job anywhere. But at the end of the process, you either receive a job offer or not. If you receive a job offer, you are, in fact, INVITED.
I'm not ALLOWED to work at my job. I EARNED this position and I continue to earn it every day. If I ever fail to do that, I'll be the first to encourage them to kick my butt out the door. But I am not now, nor have I ever been, ALLOWED to work somewhere. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Xerapis wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Xerapis wrote: |
| You interview, you're evaluated, you're OFFERED A JOB BY THAT COMPANY. |
Forget the requirements we have to pass for getting this job then?
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Forget how to read what I wrote?
I never argued that the people who hired him are responsible for his bank problems. Don't put words in my mouth.
I never said you did. I am merely pointing out what I was originally arguing, until you decided to play a game of semantics. Don't put words in MY mouth thank you very much.
I take exception to your insulting assertion that we are ALLOWED to work, not INVITED. Yes, there are requirements and qualifications. As there are for any job anywhere. But at the end of the process, you either receive a job offer or not. If you receive a job offer, you are, in fact, INVITED.
The E-2 is a work permit. You are permitted to work IF you have the visa. But it does not guarantee you a job as those 100 SMOE teachers-to-be found out.
I'm not ALLOWED to work at my job. I EARNED this position and I continue to earn it every day. If I ever fail to do that, I'll be the first to encourage them to kick my butt out the door. But I am not now, nor have I ever been, ALLOWED to work somewhere. |
You earned it? By being able to speak English or is this some non-teaching job?
Anyhow as this is devolving into a game of semantics (as so many of these threads do) let's get back on track.
The people who gave him a job are not responsible for his problems at the bank. Semantics aside this is my position. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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Xerapis
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Devolving into semantics, or devolving into you continuing your barrage of snide and insulting comments.
It's rather pathetic that even when you're basically correct, it turns my stomach to be on the same side of an argument because of the offensive and derisive way that you express your opinions.
You're right. The company has no responsibility to help him with bank issues that are unrelated to him receiving his pay in the bank account.
I think the larger problem is that most of the time, companies hiring foreigners are completely unaware of most of the difficulties that foreigners face living in Korea. In most cases, the company is probably unable to do anything to solve those problems. But it's disturbing that there appears to be no consideration of this factor when hiring foreigners.
There can be a big difference between what you're responsible to do, and the right thing to do. |
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mc_jc
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| mc_jc wrote: |
I think the one thing that distinguishes Korea from the US is that the US doesn't base immigration law on popular fears and assumptions that are spread in the Korean media.
It goes where the money is. But it also has way more of an uncontrolled immigration policy and one reason the recent immigration reform bill was scuttled was because of those popular fears and assumptions spread in the American media.
Nor do US legislators invite open racists to encourage policy changes on Capitol Hill.
No, they invite closet racists, or people with an "anti-illegal immigration agenda".
Also, the US has Affirmative Action/ Equal Opportunity laws where an employer can't discriminate against a person because of their age, race or preference. Also there is Civil Rights legislation that prohibits major acts of public discrimination from happening.
Aside from racial profiling by the police, our criminal justice system, bank loans, housing discrimination, pizza drivers taking a black persons pizza last, minorities not being able to catch cabs, and typecasting in Hollywood you are absolutely right. Major discrimination does not happen. Any other proclamations on how racism in America is dead?
especially with those news expos�s that continually paint foreigners as drug abusing thieves. If such things were to appear in the US newsmedia, the ACLU would have a field day.
Ever watch FOXNEWS coverage on illegal immigration and the Mexican drug cartels? Ever read an op-ed by Anti-Immigration voices say the Washington Post? It happens all the time.
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Fair enough- but alot of what is written is regarding people who don't openly advocate such instances. I am not saying it doesn't occur, but it is not as blatant and in-your-face as what you would find in Korea.
You don't find the US government making blanket policy regarding immigration based on the fears of the population as in Korea.
Also, a member of the minority has the right to report such businesses that refuse to service them to the Better Business Bureau and refer them to the NAACP or the ACLU in case they are discriminated.
The problem with many Asians residing in the US and experience racism and discrimination don't report it through the proper channels. If they did, then something would be done. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Xerapis wrote: |
Devolving into semantics, or devolving into you continuing your barrage of snide and insulting comments.
Excuse me, sir? Perhaps you would like to look back and see which one of us began with the snide comments?
"Now feel free to play some kind of dictionary semantics. Here you can choose from the list below..."
It's rather pathetic that even when you're basically correct, it turns my stomach to be on the same side of an argument because of the offensive and derisive way that you express your opinions.
My responses are governed by the tone of the discussion. I have no problems remaining civil as long as others do. I've had civil disagreements plenty of times. But when someone says something offensive/trollish...or wants to apparently take the gloves off...so be it.
You're right. The company has no responsibility to help him with bank issues that are unrelated to him receiving his pay in the bank account.
And this was all I said.
I think the larger problem is that most of the time, companies hiring foreigners are completely unaware of most of the difficulties that foreigners face living in Korea. In most cases, the company is probably unable to do anything to solve those problems. But it's disturbing that there appears to be no consideration of this factor when hiring foreigners.
Although if they are completely unaware of this factor that would explain why there's no consideration of said factor.
There can be a big difference between what you're responsible to do, and the right thing to do. |
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Xerapis
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Do the companies have any responsibility to be aware of the living conditions of foreigners in their country before inviting them to move there? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Xerapis wrote: |
| Do the companies have any responsibility to be aware of the living conditions of foreigners in their country before inviting them to move there? |
I would say no. These foreigners can always decline the invitation if the living conditions in the company's country aren't up to their standards.
I would say the company's responsibility begins and ends with the contract. If the foreigner should require certain assistance with certain services, that should be acknowledged in the contract...some teaching contracts do mention helping the teacher set up a bank account for example. |
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Xerapis
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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I guess that's where we have to agree to disagree then.
Even after being here for four years in the Army, I was still unaware of some of the difficulties I would face when I transitioned to being a civilian in Korea.
I don't think it's entirely realistic to expect people who've never been here to anticipate all the "little things" that can make life less convenient.
I also don't expect the companies to resolve all these issues themselves. But if the Korean companies that hire foreigners started to lobby for conditions to change, many issues could be quite quickly resolved. For me, it boils down to "nobody's got our backs". |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| travelingfool wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| travelingfool wrote: |
Finally, when talking about racism in the US, why does everyone only bring up white hate groups? How about Mecha, La Raza, Brown Berets, Black Panthers, etc? Oh yeah, I forgot, only white male Americans can be racist! |
WAAAAH WAAAAH WAAAAAH!
How many of, these groups do you actually know about? (Don't worry, I'll wait for you to do a quick Wikipedia or Google search). |
Kabrams, you sure do seem to have a chip on your shoulder about race, especially about whites. |
I've been told that. And I honestly don't care.
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Let me tell you something. Here in LA, most Mexicans hate blacks. |
Hooo boy. A white guy telling me about what Mexicans think? This should be good.
*grabs popcorn and settles in*
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| You should have heard a Mexican guy I work with talk about Obama. I have never heard the N word more times in my life. |
The "N-word" or n!gger?
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| I speak fluent Spanish. Yes, OMG, a white male who actually knows a second language! |
Congrats on joining the rest of us, YT. Just kidding, but seriously, what's your point? That I'm somehow amazed that a white guy speaks Spanish? It's actually not that rare, seeing as white Mexicans do exist, lol.
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| If you, Mr/Mrs Kabrams, as a black person, walked through certain neighborhoods in LA, you would likely be shot or at best severely beaten. |
The same could be said for some places in white Appalachia. And yet I don't go around saying "WHITE PEOPLE HATE BLACK PEOPLE."
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| Why? Because you are black. |
Okay.
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| Now, if you walked through my primarily white neighborhood, nobody would say a word and certainly never act on their thoughts. It's called being civilized. |
Hahaha, I knew this was going to get good! So you're basically saying that based on a few bad neighborhoods in LA, all Mexicans hate blacks and are therefore uncivilized.
Yikes.
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| My area is quite peaceful. Why is Compton not safe? I don't see many evil whites there. Hummmm. |
Ever heard of a Sundown Town? Hummmm...
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| I think it's time you took off your myopic racial glasses and see that people are idiots no matter what their color. |
Whatev. I'll keep calling white people on their crap (along with any other group). It just so happens that I see more BS from white people than other groups because that's who I'm around right now.
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| Trust me, I hate plenty of whites. |
LOL!
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| The people who have hurt me and screwed me over the worst are white. The people who are raping and pillaging the US are white. The US congress is as corrupt as they come and is filled with, you guessed it, white people. |
You said it, not me. 
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| Finally Kabrams, I do a lot of volunteer work and work with people of all backgrounds. Our ideals are what unite us, not skin color. Maybe that might be a better way of classifying people. Then again, as a evil, privileged, self entitled white male, I probably just wouldn't understand, right? |
Who said you were evil? That's the thing with some of you guys--you hear "privileged" and automatically think I'm calling you "evil". Self-entitled? Yeah, probably. Privileged? Certainly. But evil?
Come on, now.
As a side note, I have Latinos (Mexicans, PRs) in my family, and went to school in Mexico. I also speak Spanish and have several Mexican friends. My black brother lived in LA for many years and many of my family are located in Oxnard, which is majority Latino.
I have Mexican and Mexican American friends from San Diego, Tijuana, DF, Puebla, Cuernavaca, Oaxaca and Veracruz.
So please...please don't pretend you know what all Mexicans think about black people.
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Kabrams, chill. ALL he's trying to say is that it's not white people who are racist -- it's poor people!
Or is it that white people are civilized and Mexicans aren't?
Anyway, you don't have to worry about racism in upper/middle class white suburbia, because that racism isn't overt or violent -- it's just institutionalized. Whew! Bet you feel better now. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Old Gil wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| travelingfool wrote: |
It's funny how many supposed college graduates don't know the difference between an ATM/Debit card and a credit card.
There is zero excuse for inviting someone to teach in your country then treating them like complete dog crap. Be warned guys!
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It's even funnier how many supposed college graduates don't know the difference between government/Immigration and some lazy idiot tellers at a bank. |
It's even EVEN funnier when one can't distinguish an isolated incident from a systematic pattern of behavior targeting a certain group. |
And it's the most fun when someone can't distinguish someone else talking about an isolated incident and NOT about a "systematic pattern of behavior."
Also it's highly amusing that this can be called a "systematic pattern of behavior" since there are quite a number of people who have few if any problems. Doesn't seem systematic at all...quite haphazard and irregularly applied from what I can see. |
What you don't seem to understand is that the "lazy teller" incident falls on the side of a foreigner actually getting a credit card -- not the other way around. And the government is responsible for restricting businesses to prevent them from having discriminatory practices.
What you don't seem to understand was that I was not supporting the bank practises. travelingfool wrote "There is zero excuse for inviting someone to teach in your country then treating them like complete dog crap."
First of all I highly doubt he was given a invitation...he was ALLOWED to teach not invited. Secondly it was the Education Ministry who invited him not the banks. And lastly it was the bank tellers who apparently treated him badly, not the Ed. Ministry.
I have been here for a year. I have nearly 10 million in the bank. I have never let a single bill go unpaid. I had a Korean co-teacher with me to vouch for my character and assure the tellers that I had just that week re-signed my contract to be in the country for another year. We went to no less than ten different banks and not a single one would give me a credit card. It wasn't the tellers' fault -- they did their best, each placing a number of phone calls to people in higher and higher positions of power.
By the way, the word they used to explain why I couldn't have a credit card was "foreigner" -- not temporary migrant worker.
Yes, we all know that explaining complex ideas in a language you don't speak is dead easy and one knows all the correct terms to be used.
So anyway, I still have to ask my co-teacher to help me book a flight every time I want to go on vacation. That's not a belittling experience at all.
Ever wonder how those people who don't have helpful co-teachers still manage to book their flights?
If only I could just marry a Korean like PGHB. Then I wouldn't deserve to have to go through all of this. He earned his position in Korean society, fair and square. It's just too bad his wife has to deal with all of that racism in Canada that he hasn't actually ever described, which is apparently completely different from and far worse than me getting sexually harassed for simply walking down the street. Koreans aren't nearly as racist as Canadians, after all. |
This last paragraph was completely uncalled for and crosses the line.
Have a nice day now...or at least try. |
I understand that you were repsonding to something else that someone else said. However, I was responding to what you said -- and not with hostility, by the way. You made the point about lazy bank tellers. I just thought you should know that from what I've seen, the lazy bank tellers just go on and give the foreigner the card, whereas the hard-working ones put in the proper phone calls and are told by higher-ups not to issue one. That's a fair point, in response to what you said, wouldn't you say?
Also, they weren't using English. They were using Korean. They were speaking to my co-teacher, remember?
And I wouldn't like to imagine at all what it would be like for me here if I didn't have a wonderfully helpful co-teacher, who goes above and beyond for me. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but if it has anything to do with trying to classify me as one of the whingers on this board who lumps all Koreans together, you've made a mistake. I'm just as quick to jump in and argue against that kind of nonsense. Most Koreans don't care about us at all, and a great deal go out of their way to help us in anyway they can, or get to know us and form genuine friendships. That doesn't mean that the ROK is without its flaws.
I don't feel insecure about what I've seen in the ROK so far -- in general I think there seems to have been a hell of a lot of progress in an incredibly short amount of time. And steps are continuing to be made. That's why I don't feel the need to deny the problems that still exist. Every country has its struggles with "outsiders". Some are worse than others. The people who get so defensive about Korea confuse me, because it's completely normal for Korea to have some amount of racism and xenophobia, both overt and institutionalized. Every country has it. Why get bent out of shape about it? |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
If by a nation and immigrants, well then indict the whole lot of em, every nation on earth.
Dude you're a temporary resident alien. Get used to the fact that you are not going to be treated equally, nor should you be.
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Can you imagine saying this to anybody but a white person in a non white country? It's incredibly chauvinistic.
I most certainly should be treated equally, what my rights may be are another story. |
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