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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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 Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
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That's pretty messed up. Maybe the system of incentives for research ought to be reexamined so researchers aren't as motivated to alter their data for the sake of marketable conclusions. Beyond global warming, this calls into question peer reviewed science in general. I already recognized how baseless and fabricated psychiatric research was as well as how far behind ideal most pharmaceutical treatments in general have been both in terms of safety and effectiveness in practice. I guess I'll have to add peer reviewed scientific research outside of the medical industry to my list of stuff that isn't actually an authority on reality despite its use as such.
This is what happens when people are offered extreme incentives to discover something impressive-- their goal won't be to actually discover something impressive, but rather to convince those offering the extreme incentives that they discovered something impressive. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| I already recognized how baseless and fabricated psychiatric research was as well as how far behind ideal most pharmaceutical treatments in general have been both in terms of safety and effectiveness in practice. |
Yes. See Selling the DSM and The Myth of Mental Disorders.
Hacks. Everywhere. Self-interested hacks. They peddle fear.
This is going to be a major blow to the credibility of public intellectuals, the peer-review process and similar. I welcome it. We are drowning in hysterical nonsense. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Wow. Reading these emails.. The hacks had an excellent lifestyle. They prance all over the world on other peoples money peddling their lies. Like investment bankers!
Everything is a scam. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I already recognized how baseless and fabricated psychiatric research was as well as how far behind ideal most pharmaceutical treatments in general have been both in terms of safety and effectiveness in practice. |
Yes. See Selling the DSM and The Myth of Mental Disorders.
Hacks. Everywhere. Self-interested hacks. They peddle fear.
This is going to be a major blow to the credibility of public intellectuals, the peer-review process and similar. I welcome it. We are drowning in hysterical nonsense. |
I guess on the one hand it's a good thing to at least *find out* you have cancer, but on the other hand, you have cancer. Assuming this inspires a major rehaul on how peer reviewed research is conducted and managed, what should this rehaul look like? I assume we still need some sort of organized research system in place unless we're cool with going the anarcho-primitivism route. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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From: Phil Jones
To: "Michael E. Mann"
Subject: Re: Fw: Law Dome O18
Date: Mon Feb 9 15:50:09 2004
Mike,
These were two simple ones to provide. Also Tas told him I had one of them. I guess these are the ones that aren't available on web sites.
Anyway, it is done now. If he starts asking for them in dribs and drabs, I'll baulk at that.
Ben waded in with very positive comments re the CC issue. Steve's going to find it very hard to ask you to send the code. Those that say on the CC board that you should send the code, have little idea what is involved. Most are on the social science side.
Cheers
Phil
At 10:19 09/02/2004 -0500, you wrote:
HI Phil,
Personally, I wouldn't send him anything. I have no idea what he's up to, but you can be sure it falls into the "no good" category.
There are a few series from our '03 paper that he won't have�these include the latest Jacoby and D'Arrigo, which I digitized from their publication (they haven't made it publicly available) and the extended western North American series, which they wouldn't be able to reproduce without following exactly the procedure described in our '99 GRL paper to remove the estimated non-climatic component.
I would not give them *anything*. I would not respond or even acknowledge receipt of their emails. There is no reason to give them any data, in my opinion, and I think we do so at our own peril!
talk to you later,
mike
At 02:46 PM 2/9/2004 +0000, Phil Jones wrote:
Mike,
FYI. Sent him the two series - the as received versions. Wonder what he's up to? Why these two series ? Used a lot more in the 1998 paper. Didn't want the Alerce series.
Must already have the Tassy series from Ed. I know Ed has a more recent series than we used in 1998. Got this for the 2003 work.
Cheers
Phil
From: "Steve McIntyre"
To: "Phil Jones"
Subject: Fw: Law Dome O18
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:05:23 -0500
Dear Phil,
Tas van Ommen has refered me to you for the version of his dataset that you used in Jones et al Holocene 1998 and I would appreicate a copy. I would also appreciate a copy of the Lenca series used in this study. Regards, Steve McIntyre |
http://briefingroom.typepad.com/the_briefing_room/2009/11/hadleycru-says-leaked-data-is-real.html
| Quote: |
The director of Britain's leading Climate Research Unit, Phil Jones, has told Investigate magazine's TGIF Edition tonight that his organization has been hacked, and the data flying all over the internet appears to be genuine. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: |
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How to deal with deniers:
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| "but the response should try to somehow label these guys and lazy and incompetent and unable to do the huge amount of work it takes to construct such a database. Indeed technology and data handling capabilities have evolved and not everything was saved. So my feeble suggestion is to indeed cast aspersions on their motives and throw in some counter rhetoric. Labeling them as lazy with nothng better to do seems like a good thing to do." |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Wow.. Reading these emails. They controlled the peer-review process and removed all dissent. They've done science a great disservice. All peer-reviewed work on this subject that is in any way connected with the hundreds of individuals implicated in these emails has to be tossed out.
Play with fire, you get burned. But this will have wider implications. First, western hysterics have been pushing this crap on Asia et al for a couple decades. We look like gullible fools being led astray by corrupt liars (because we are, I guess). Second, the anti-evolutionists can now rightly call into question the peer-review process as being politically corrupted and controlled by ideologues. I wouldn't be surprised if this throws gas on the "intelligent design" in schools debate. Because that's what we need. More nonsense being taught in schools. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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The leftist spin begins:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/20/climate-sceptics-hackers-leaked-emails
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| The alleged emails illustrate the persistent pressure some climatologists have been under from skeptics in recent years. There have been repeated calls, including Freedom of Information requests, for the Climate Research Unit to make public a confidential data set of land and sea temperature recordings that is �value added� by the unit before being used by the Met Office. The emails show the frustration some climatologists have had at having to operate under such intense, often politically motivated, scrutiny. |
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| A spokesman for Greenpeace said: "If you looked through any organisation's emails from the last 10 years you'd find something that would raise a few eyebrows. Contrary to what the sceptics claim, the Royal Society, the US National Academy of Sciences, Nasa and the world's leading atmospheric scientists are not the agents of a clandestine global movement against the truth. This stuff might drive some web traffic, but so does David Icke." |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| Climate sceptics claim leaked emails are evidence of collusion among scientists |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/20/climate-sceptics-hackers-leaked-emails
Mann responds�
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| �I�m simply not going to comment on the content of illegally obtained emails. However, I will say this: both their theft and, I believe, any reproduction of the emails that were obtained on public websites, etc, constitutes serious criminal activity. I�m hoping that the perpetrators and their facilitators will be tracked down and prosecuted to the fullest extent the law allows.� |
Awww, poor little hack. |
 That takes the cake |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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From a comment on wattsupwiththat.com
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Folks, this isnt so much about the science as it is about the INSTITUTIONS that are at work in �climate science�
So, when they pound the table about peer reviewed literature, when they point at that as the gold standard, YOU get to see behind the scenes at what that process is like.
you get to see them discuss which journals they have friends on. Watch them boycot journals, watch them game the system so that their critics papers get delayed, watch them craft each others lnaguage according to a media plan written by PR agencies.
Its a puppet show and the screen just fell down. THAT is the story. |
The UN says:
http://www.undispatch.com/node/9179
| Quote: |
| Women Will Be Hit Hardest By Climate Change |
Why didn't they go for gold and say:
Lesbian transsexual differently-abled muslim persons of color living in America to be hit hardest by climate change.
Cover all your bases. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed. This has definitely ruined alot of peoples' day. |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if Australian Prime Minister Comrade Krudd will now soften his rhetoric towards those of us who still are not completely convinced of the science.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/rudd-attacks-climate-change-sceptics-20091106-i1tp.html
Rudd attacks climate change sceptics
PETER VENESS
November 6, 2009 .
AAP
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has savaged the federal opposition's climate change sceptics, labelling them dangerous, arrogant gamblers prepared to bet on their grandchildren's future.
.................
In a fierce attack against Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull and others around him, Mr Rudd issued a clarion call for action on climate change.
"The do-nothing climate change sceptics are still alive and well in the coalition," Mr Rudd said.
Many in the coalition and elsewhere have said Australia should wait to pass climate change legislation until after the Copenhagen negotiations in a month.
The prime minister rejected the suggestion outright.
"The argument that we must not act until others do is an argument that has been used by political cowards since time immemorial both of the left and the right.
"They are reckless gamblers who are betting all our futures on their arrogant assumption that their intuitions should triumph over the evidence.
"You are betting our jobs, our houses, our farms, our reefs, our economy and our future on an intuition on a gut feeling; on a political prejudice you have about science."
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But again he returned to the "corrosive effect of climate sceptics".
He warned of what he called the powerful minority of sceptics who were "driven by vested interests".
"Climate change deniers are small in number but they are too dangerous to be ignored."
Mr Rudd also turned his attack on commentators Alan Jones and Janet Albrechtsen declaring they were clinging to denial "like a polar bear clings to a melting iceberg".
................... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Email 1:
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From: Michael Mann
To: Andrew Revkin
Subject: Re: mcintyre's latest�.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:27:25 -0400
Cc: [email protected]
HI Andy,
Yep, what was written below is all me, but it was purely on background, please don't quote anything I said or attribute to me w/out checking specifically�thanks.
Re, your point at the end�you've taken the words out of my mouth. Skepticism is essential for the functioning of science. It yields an erratic path towards eventual truth. But legitimate scientific skepticism is exercised through formal scientific circles, in particular the peer review process. A necessary though not in general sufficient condition
for taking a scientific criticism seriously is that it has passed through the legitimate scientific peer review process. those such as McIntyre who operate almost entirely outside of this system are not to be trusted.
mike |
Email 2:
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I think we have to stop considering "Climate Research" as a
legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently sit on the editorial board...
What do others think?
mike |
The Huffington Post has taken the MSM helm in handwaving on this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/20/climate-depot-everything_n_365754.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-grandia/stolen-climate-science-em_b_365867.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/20/climate-sceptics-email-hacking
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/science/earth/21climate.html
At least we know they read their own memo's:
| Quote: |
| "but the response should try to somehow label these guys and lazy and incompetent and unable to do the huge amount of work it takes to construct such a database. Indeed technology and data handling capabilities have evolved and not everything was saved. So my feeble suggestion is to indeed cast aspersions on their motives and throw in some counter rhetoric. Labeling them as lazy with nothng better to do seems like a good thing to do." |
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