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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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storysinger81
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Location: Daegu
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 Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeonmunka wrote: |
| You say certified teachers can't make it here. I put it the other way, Korea won't equip you the necessities for the western classroom. |
You absolutely speak the truth, sir. I've seen maybe one teacher figure out how to become a decent teacher in Korea. I've seen a lot of other people THINK they're really awesome teachers because they've figured out how to play the game in Korea... but I laugh when I think of how they'd be eaten alive in a western classroom. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| storysinger81 wrote: |
| Jeonmunka wrote: |
| You say certified teachers can't make it here. I put it the other way, Korea won't equip you the necessities for the western classroom. |
You absolutely speak the truth, sir. I've seen maybe one teacher figure out how to become a decent teacher in Korea. I've seen a lot of other people THINK they're really awesome teachers because they've figured out how to play the game in Korea... but I laugh when I think of how they'd be eaten alive in a western classroom. |
The biggest problem for me in the western classroom is the attitude of the students. If you are teaching lower level classes (in Ontario this would be applied/college level) the kids have so many problems that a teacher has to deal with, it really isn't an enjoyable experience. I didn't get into teaching to deal with kids who are having such severe problems in their lives that they can't cope at school. This is why I returned to Asia and why I'll most likely be in the international school circuit for the next 10 to 20 years. Sure I'd love to have that sweet pension back in Canada, but it isn't worth the stress I would get from teaching for years at a crappy at-risk school before getting into a decent school and getting to teach high level students who are no problem to deal with. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| storysinger81 wrote: |
| Jeonmunka wrote: |
| You say certified teachers can't make it here. I put it the other way, Korea won't equip you the necessities for the western classroom. |
You absolutely speak the truth, sir. I've seen maybe one teacher figure out how to become a decent teacher in Korea. I've seen a lot of other people THINK they're really awesome teachers because they've figured out how to play the game in Korea... but I laugh when I think of how they'd be eaten alive in a western classroom. |
The biggest problem for me in the western classroom is the attitude of the students. If you are teaching lower level classes (in Ontario this would be applied/college level) the kids have so many problems that a teacher has to deal with, it really isn't an enjoyable experience. I didn't get into teaching to deal with kids who are having such severe problems in their lives that they can't cope at school. This is why I returned to Asia and why I'll most likely be in the international school circuit for the next 10 to 20 years. Sure I'd love to have that sweet pension back in Canada, but it isn't worth the stress I would get from teaching for years at a crappy at-risk school before getting into a decent school and getting to teach high level students who are no problem to deal with. |
I agree with attitude of the students. In Montreal, I would have had to teach kids in low income areas who don't give a rat's modedit  about learning English because their parents told them it's not important. I've had grade 6 kids tell me that their plan for the future was to drop out of school and live on welfare. How depressing! Plus, I'd be a specialist teacher (ESL), which means usually not having your own classroom and just a shared office, less respect (homeroom teachers always get more respect than specialists) and, if at elementary level, 2 or 3 schools. It is so completely demoralizing to be teaching kids who don't want to learn. I can deal with anything but that. That's why I decided I never want to teach in public schools in Canada.
Here I'm teaching as a homeroom teacher for grade 1 students. The difference is unbelievable. |
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Manuel_the_Bandito
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| storysinger81 wrote: |
| Also, most Korean educators do recognize credentials like being certified in your home country and having experience teaching back home. In fact, with EPIK, it automatically qualifies you for the highest pay grade (except that new 1+ thing). |
No it doesn't. An education certification gets you the same thing as a 100-hour TEFL certificate you can buy on line. Furthermore the fact that an elementary certification is recognised for (very slightly) higher secondary school pay and vice versa just shows you how little consideration they've given the matter. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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If Korea wants to improve quality then they could raise the bar at this point. I would be happy to see them start to require e.g. some sort of formal TEFL certification or perhaps 2 yrs exp.
Instead, they've predicatably opted to hire on appearance: only young blonde females will officially be given jobs from january onwards. How dumb is that? |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
| I've seen a great many posts by licensed professionals who just can't deal with the way the Korean educational system works. They don't tend to stay long. |
By the way, I meant this to come across in a way that said licensed educators from abroad just don't want to deal with the typical inefficiency and roadblocks put up in front of them at Korean public schools. It's been my experience that most licensed educators (from the USA, anyway) just throw up their hands in disgust and decide they're spinning their wheels here. They eventually go home because they feel like they are wasting their time.
They could easily "hack it" if they wanted, but choose to move on. |
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milkweedma
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
If Korea wants to improve quality then they could raise the bar at this point. I would be happy to see them start to require e.g. some sort of formal TEFL certification or perhaps 2 yrs exp.
Instead, they've predicatably opted to hire on appearance: only young blonde females will officially be given jobs from january onwards. How dumb is that? |
Yes, it's dumb. But never forget that Korea "is all about appearances".
An interesting thread, but I seriously doubt that Koreans will ever be co-ordinated enough to put into effect any systems that have western logic as their basic premise. Being an 'effective' teacher requires excellent support (and open mindedness to new ideas), an interesting, challenging and rewarding curriculum, experience and passion. In my 2 years here I don't see any of those ingredients being fostered. I see short-term focussed, conformist based rational and implementation, and poor planning. |
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SandyG21
Joined: 26 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Instead, they've predicatably opted to hire on appearance: only young blonde females will officially be given jobs from january onwards. How dumb is that?[/quote]
Sounds very much like the USA to me! |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeonmunka wrote: |
In my country schooling is a national affair. What confronts one school is a problem for the whole country.
In the US, each state is separate. So, schools are simply closed? Four day weeks?
What happens to the kids, where do they go?
As for certified teachers being somehow unprepared and unfit in the Korean system I want to say for the record that the typical Korean way of learning English language, and grading it, is is not geared towards learning for students and developing methodology but is insidiously tied to private profits and 'churning out.'
I took a part time gig at a prep. hakwon. I was expected to partake in a 'learning' system whereby I would listen to students read from articles and I would merely amend their pronunciation. I found out that this was the expectation - after I had introduced lessons in a communicative way I was told that was not what was required. What was required was that they read to me and they had 'speaking time.'
Anyway, this method was espoused by the hakwon director to somehow prepare students for their placement and studies in a foreign language school.
Well, there were some students who could not understand 99% of the content that they had practiced at home and were now reading in class. Most students on their own couldn't express any argument or statement (even one sentence) about the content itself. Against the system I partook in communicative lessons about the content. So, I slowed things down - these students were expected to do one article a day - I stretched that to a week. Come on - get familiar with the content, ffs.
I had an argument with the director about it. Later (I didn't last more than a month) I heard that those students went straight into the ranks of the foreign language school student body without any such thing as an English interview nor a test of any kind.
That was the system for entry. The director knew the guys at the school and sent the students there.
(Similar thing happened to my wife many years ago on her entry into uni. Her school councellor sent her to a certain university. She had the choice of either 'that or no uni' for the next year. People are in each others' pockets and get paid commissions as headhunters etc.)
It's a private-profit school system. You have school management taking students and passing them despite the students' weak abilities.
I watched in horror as this process took place. You are right, I didn't accept it. I rejected that system.
I compare the system and the students with the Korean students taking IELTS in New Zealand public schools in ESOL classes. Those kids write heaps and express themselves. Reviews, plot summaries, arguments ...
That is the expectation.
The expectation here is a joke in comparison.
You say certified teachers can't make it here. I put it the other way, Korea won't equip you the necessities for the western classroom. |
Most of what you said applies to Hakwons (the profit orientation) but not to public schools or universities. There the profit is not a driver.
As for support, organization and other such factors, Korea poses challenges to the certified teacher who was working back in his home country. However these are a different set of challenges but also a different set of advantages. I can compare the two, Canadian HS and Korean HS, having worked in both. They each offer a Teacher a lot of opportunity to apply his or her skills. They each offer advantages and disadvantages of course. Its certainly not black and white...up to each teacher to decide where he or she fits better. |
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jpotter78
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Manuel_the_Bandito wrote: |
| storysinger81 wrote: |
| Also, most Korean educators do recognize credentials like being certified in your home country and having experience teaching back home. In fact, with EPIK, it automatically qualifies you for the highest pay grade (except that new 1+ thing). |
No it doesn't. An education certification gets you the same thing as a 100-hour TEFL certificate you can buy on line. Furthermore the fact that an elementary certification is recognised for (very slightly) higher secondary school pay and vice versa just shows you how little consideration they've given the matter. |
Let me preclude my statement with this. I am a certified teacher.
Okay, why should it get you that much more? Does being certified make you a better teacher? Nope. I remember tons of teachers I had in school that were HORRIBLE teachers (in fact, probably the majority of them), and they were all 'certified'. I worked for 3 years with multiple certified teachers here in Korea, and I must say, they were not the best teachers in the school. Me aside (I'm biased of course! ), there were two non-certified teachers, that had loads of ESL experience, that were leagues ahead of the other teachers in terms of classroom management, teaching methods, likeability, and just overall control and progression of their classrooms. And all of this aside, being certified back home, will give you almost zero preparation for teaching here in Korea. So, why should the government pay these teachers so much more? What does it accomplish? |
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Jeonmunka
Joined: 05 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| public schools or universities |
If you are linked to Gepik, Epik, the Seoul Metro one - all of those have a profit motive somewhere within because individuals (not the foreign teachers) control the money ins and outs. A fair share of universities also will have their kickbacks. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Jeon...but the school that hires you is not in it for profit...it is a public school. What the placement agency gets is irrelevant.
EPIK for example is publicly funded by the government. It does not turn a profit. It will aim to be cost effective so it uses its budget efficiently but it is not a privatly owned hakwon with the owner looking to make a profit at the end of each month. That is a huge difference and hence in the PS system profit is not a driver.
As for Universities, the students register in majors, English is part of the major...there is not much profit issue there.
Money is involved but that is the case for all programs in the sense that they haver to pay their teachers and want to get quality teaching out of them and offer their students good lessons and effective lessons.
Again, your example work very well for Hakwons but it kind of drives off the road when you discuss Public Schools. |
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