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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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 Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Westerners set great store in the spoken word. Something hasn't officially happened in our eyes unless it has been verbally expressed and clarified.
Koreans however.. communicate much more non-verbally. You're suposed to understand their subtle signs a lot more. Actually voicing problems to Koreans often seems to actually make them worse. |
Well put. |
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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| exit86 wrote: |
"I'm sorry" is a tough thing for many folks here to say;
I reckon it is because--in serious situations--it is a loss of face.
It sounds like your K. mom was trying to communicate her shame through metamessages (nervous grin, changing the subject, trying to laugh it off, trying to blame you, slightly lowered head) in expectation of you being in tune with her signals through a good sense of "nunchi" (눈치) |
Westerners set great store in the spoken word. Something hasn't officially happened in our eyes unless it has been verbally expressed and clarified.
Koreans however.. communicate much more non-verbally. You're suposed to understand their subtle signs a lot more. Actually voicing problems to Koreans often seems to actually make them worse. |
Great post, I was just thinking the same thing....
Although I don't really "get it"... as I'm a very logical un-emotional guy.
you are talking about Nunchi / Kibun right?
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-nunchi-kibun-values-norms-korea.html |
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thunderbird
Joined: 18 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Is saying sorry really so hard? |
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| definitely maybe wrote: |
Over the course of nearly eight years in Korea, I've noticed how reluctant the locals are to admit fault and apologize in just about any situation where they are clearly at fault. Now don't get me wrong; I'm not going to try to argue that every Korean is completely absent of manners. I really don't believe that. However, a relatively minor situation I endured today has left me questioning the values taught in Korean society, yet again.
First, a little background. I am married and have a child. Like many F-2-1 visaholders, I do benefit from a far friendlier schedule than your average E-2. Having a large apartment with a few spare rooms, we've set up a "study room" in the front guestroom. We're licensed and completely comply with Korean laws, so that's not an issue. It is the study room I just mentioned where the event transpired.
Today, while teaching a group on kindergarteners, I had to stop a child from nearly ripping her seat cover in half. Now I realize that kids are kids, so I gently scolded her for destroying my furniture. I did not yell, but I was firm. My exact words, in English and then clarified with Korean were, "That's my chair, not yours. Why did you ruin my chair? That's not what good girls do. I'm very sad now." Her reaction was, of course, less than receptive. She broke into tears and crawled under the table. The lesson was nearly over, so we had to get the kids ready to be picked up while doing a little damage control. Therefore, I did not force an apology on the spot.
Since she refused to leave the room with the rest of her group, it provided an opportune time to pull her mother aside and explain the situation. As those of you who work with younger children will probably attest, it's best to deliver news to parents, especially when misbehavior or punishment are involved, immediately. That way you can give them an accurate depiction of the true story before their "little angels" fill their heads with lies. That was what my wife and I set out to do.
Unfortunately, as I guess I should have expected, the mother laughed off the situation. She said that we need to be careful when her daughter feels bad, and I must have done something to upset her. My wife, always the diplomat, attempted to explain why her daughter was upset for a second time. Very little ground was covered in resolving the situation. In fact, the child's mother became visibly irritated with our persistence. She decided that it was time to go, and that was that.
Before she was able to get into the elevator, we explained that this is our home, not a hagwon, and we will not tolerate similar behavior in the future. This was primarily said in an effort to elicit and apology, but also a warning. We have more requests for lessons than we can accomodate in our neighborhood, and I've always been very up front with my stance on discipline. I'm not going to deal with this kind of stuff in my home. Of course, all we received was a lowered head, half in shame and half in disgust at a foreigner who doesn't know his place.
To be honest, a situation like this usually is pretty easy to disregard. However, I find myself faced with some serious questions regarding how we will raise our son. I want to teach him that he should always be respecftul and polite to both adults and peers, especially when he has done something wrong. With that said, I also don't want him to suffer because of his western upbringing. Why should he have apologize to other children , or adults for that matter, when the very act I'm demanding of him seems to be unthinkable to the people who he is expected to apologize to?
I can't teach him that a double-standard exists that requires him to only be gracious and upstanding to non-Koreans. Not only is that ridiculous, it's incredibly unfair to half of his family. A half, I might add, that conducts themselves incredibly politely in public and at home, just as a large percentage of folks do in this country. Teaching a child something ridiculous like that simply perpetuates racial tension, and that's not something I'd ever want to contribute to.
I guess this has turned into a bit of a self-righteous rant, but I'd really appreciate the insight of others on this topic. We've always planned on heading back to the states, but my wife and I would like out son to spend some significant time learning about where his mom and her family are from. Are we expecting too much from Korea? Is international school truly the only answer? Am I really just being hyper-sensitive about something that I would've shrugged off a few years ago? I mean, things like this do happen at literally every street corner throughout the country, right? Have at it folks. |
what? my kids say teacha sorry teacha sorry teacha sorry all the time ... and then they go do whatever they did again without even thinking |
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Shapur
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| Shapur wrote: |
| definitely maybe wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| If you have children in your house be prepared. Quit whining. And raise your kids how you see fit. You know this. |
I don't like your delivery, but I pretty much agree. I don't know why I expected anything else from the gang here. I guess this ends my obligatory rant on Dave's. Is there some sort of a secret initiation I go through to officially join your ranks now? |
Ah man, don't let it bring you down.
Quite a few of the earlier posters did read your posts carefully and realise that your wife and mother in law also found the mother's behavior bang out of order.
I've lived here for years and so did I.
Quite a few people also get your point.
People on here sometimes drown in their own sanctimoniousness (is that a word?^^) |
Tosser. |
Oh well done!^^
Study harder and you'll be able to manage full sentences AND stop your knuckles dragging when you walk! |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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halfmanhalfbiscuit
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Shapur wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| Shapur wrote: |
| definitely maybe wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| If you have children in your house be prepared. Quit whining. And raise your kids how you see fit. You know this. |
I don't like your delivery, but I pretty much agree. I don't know why I expected anything else from the gang here. I guess this ends my obligatory rant on Dave's. Is there some sort of a secret initiation I go through to officially join your ranks now? |
Ah man, don't let it bring you down.
Quite a few of the earlier posters did read your posts carefully and realise that your wife and mother in law also found the mother's behavior bang out of order.
I've lived here for years and so did I.
Quite a few people also get your point.
People on here sometimes drown in their own sanctimoniousness (is that a word?^^) |
Tosser. |
Oh well done!^^
Study harder and you'll be able to manage full sentences AND stop your knuckles dragging when you walk! |
You are a pissy, prissy little tosser. Better? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
You are a pissy, prissy little tosser. Better? |
I don't know about better, but it definitely sounds like a very gay thing to say to someone. |
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bixlerscott
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Location: Near Wonju, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Definitely Maybe layed it out, but too darned long of a post. No offence. I understand our English is very wordy when it comes to discussion while a casual 10 word response lacks character and definition to describe what is precisely being said. Talking about situations on working abroad is so darned complex with all the ubiquitious dynamics, but you get all the ubiquitious facts after a while to the point where you enlightened with sparkling knowledge. Just a tiny country where it's the same ol' same ol' every where except Seoul.
Sorry is an impossible gesture for the proud and arrogant to make even in the most appropriate situations where one is due. This annoys me greatly when someone is too proud to admit fault. This is where so much friction occurs in relations between us and Koreans in our dealings. It's not simply a cultural difference even though being extremely reserved with modesty in their behavior, but not dress is their culture surrounding saving face or avoiding embarassment as we call it. It's well known losing face or getting embarassed is seen as severe to the point many Koreans comitted suicide including a former president and other important figures.
I do agree being honest and making an apology is proper when due as to maintain a working relationship and yes I did receive apologies on several occassions from my PS school staff last year such as when they changed things at the last minute. They weren't high and mighty proud arrogant idiots in rural Gangwon province like common in Changwon or Seoul. I just loved my 1st year hagwon director who lied out her teeth, lacked apologies when she invented problems that caused unecessary drama, and then avoided the consequences when I spoke up out of addressing these issues she presented as to correct them. I put her in her place, but we stopped talking with cold bitterness towards each other though I finished the contract. |
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Shapur
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| Shapur wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| Shapur wrote: |
| definitely maybe wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| If you have children in your house be prepared. Quit whining. And raise your kids how you see fit. You know this. |
I don't like your delivery, but I pretty much agree. I don't know why I expected anything else from the gang here. I guess this ends my obligatory rant on Dave's. Is there some sort of a secret initiation I go through to officially join your ranks now? |
Ah man, don't let it bring you down.
Quite a few of the earlier posters did read your posts carefully and realise that your wife and mother in law also found the mother's behavior bang out of order.
I've lived here for years and so did I.
Quite a few people also get your point.
People on here sometimes drown in their own sanctimoniousness (is that a word?^^) |
Tosser. |
Oh well done!^^
Study harder and you'll be able to manage full sentences AND stop your knuckles dragging when you walk! |
You are a pissy, prissy little tosser. Better? |
Wow I seem to have touched a nerve 
If writing insults and abuse on an anonymous message board makes you feel like a big man, then good for you.
I don't have time to waste on your juvenile outbursts.
I know a big brave hero like yourself won't be able to resist getting in the last word.
Goodbye hero. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
You are a pissy, prissy little tosser. Better? |
I don't know about better, but it definitely sounds like a very gay thing to say to someone. |
I'm sure Elton would approve. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:10 am Post subject: |
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Wow, OP
I am amazed that there are so many haters on here. You seem like a respectful, serious individual trying to cut down on random, avoidable BS in the workplace. Sometimes it isn't about the money. However, money is all people know here and there. They place that above things like manners. In fact, having money replaces the need for manners. In that regard, I see some ways you could have handled this:
A) inform the mom about the situation. Next month hand her an envelope with the tuition and repair/new pillow cost attached so she gets the message. She will not let her daughter ruin your property
B) inform the mom that she should refrain from bringing her daughter to your school, politely. If other moms don't like her, they can and will defend you. Itaewonguy, I disagree that one mom can bring a business down. Usually it is a group of moms with a common goal. One mom is a Wangta 
I think option B is best for you, but you can have fun with option A  |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Old Gil wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
You are a pissy, prissy little tosser. Better? |
I don't know about better, but it definitely sounds like a very gay thing to say to someone. |
I'm sure Elton would approve. |
Aiishh!! |
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halfmanhalfbiscuit
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Shapur wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| Shapur wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| Shapur wrote: |
| definitely maybe wrote: |
| halfmanhalfbiscuit wrote: |
| If you have children in your house be prepared. Quit whining. And raise your kids how you see fit. You know this. |
I don't like your delivery, but I pretty much agree. I don't know why I expected anything else from the gang here. I guess this ends my obligatory rant on Dave's. Is there some sort of a secret initiation I go through to officially join your ranks now? |
Ah man, don't let it bring you down.
Quite a few of the earlier posters did read your posts carefully and realise that your wife and mother in law also found the mother's behavior bang out of order.
I've lived here for years and so did I.
Quite a few people also get your point.
People on here sometimes drown in their own sanctimoniousness (is that a word?^^) |
Tosser. |
Oh well done!^^
Study harder and you'll be able to manage full sentences AND stop your knuckles dragging when you walk! |
You are a pissy, prissy little tosser. Better? |
Wow I seem to have touched a nerve
If writing insults and abuse on an anonymous message board makes you feel like a big man, then good for you.
I don't have time to waste on your juvenile outbursts.
I know a big brave hero like yourself won't be able to resist getting in the last word.
Goodbye hero. |
Which is what you're trying to do. So *beep* off. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I've lived here for years and so did I. |
This is exactly my experience as well. |
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