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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: |
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So who is going to be put in charge of picking which medical opinions are so vile that they are to be removed? And, will that person apply the rules to those researchers and doctors who pushed vioxx? Will we censor lazy teachers who want boys to be like girls and accomplish such by Ritalin? Or, will this only apply to random people who stick their finger in the eye of Serious Science?
Best, never shout "!CENSOR!". Let it be. It's fine to beat the guy up online about whatever you want. But demanding the government silence him is lazy and dangerous.
Anyways, we'll not agree. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: |
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so fraud isn't a crime? I'm confused by what you're saying.
there's a difference between simply being wrong and being fraudulent. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
so fraud isn't a crime? I'm confused by what you're saying.
there's a difference between simply being wrong and being fraudulent. |
You haven't established it's fraud yet. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
so fraud isn't a crime? I'm confused by what you're saying.
there's a difference between simply being wrong and being fraudulent. |
Fraud being a crime means that we have no need to restrict free speech. People are and should be allowed to say anything and make any claims they wish. Then, if such claims are turn out not only to be wrong, false, but fraudulently so, then court action can be taken for the damages that have resulted from the fraudulent claims.
At that point, if the individual continues to make fraudulent claims, the continuing damage awards will bankrupt him and he will no longer be able to spread his lies.
Freedom of speech is absolute. There is never any reason or excuse for restricting it. The oft quoted but absolutely stupid comment that "you cannot shout 'fire' in a crowded theater" is not a correct statement, not true, and is, in fact, completely illogical. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| DIsbell wrote: |
so fraud isn't a crime? I'm confused by what you're saying.
there's a difference between simply being wrong and being fraudulent. |
Fraud being a crime means that we have no need to restrict free speech. People are and should be allowed to say anything and make any claims they wish. Then, if such claims are turn out not only to be wrong, false, but fraudulently so, then court action can be taken for the damages that have resulted from the fraudulent claims.
At that point, if the individual continues to make fraudulent claims, the continuing damage awards will bankrupt him and he will no longer be able to spread his lies. |
Which is exactly why I asked DIsbell how many of the 3 million people who bought his book have tried to sue him. If people felt cheated, surely at least someone would have tried to sue for damages. Nobody has. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
I tried to google "Kevin Trudeau AIDS cure" and couldn't find anything. There is no link to the quote given by proustme.
What I gather is that he's claiming cures exist (not his own, but from other people), |
I'm guessing he is probably talking about Dr. Max Gerson or perhaps Dr. Emmanuel Revici. Google them. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| DIsbell wrote: |
so fraud isn't a crime? I'm confused by what you're saying.
there's a difference between simply being wrong and being fraudulent. |
Fraud being a crime means that we have no need to restrict free speech. People are and should be allowed to say anything and make any claims they wish. Then, if such claims are turn out not only to be wrong, false, but fraudulently so, then court action can be taken for the damages that have resulted from the fraudulent claims.
At that point, if the individual continues to make fraudulent claims, the continuing damage awards will bankrupt him and he will no longer be able to spread his lies.
Freedom of speech is absolute. There is never any reason or excuse for restricting it. The oft quoted but absolutely stupid comment that "you cannot shout 'fire' in a crowded theater" is not a correct statement, not true, and is, in fact, completely illogical. |
if you are convicted of fraud, are you allowed to keep making the same fraudulent claims? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
if you are convicted of fraud, are you allowed to keep making the same fraudulent claims? |
If you are wrongly convicted by a corrupt judge, then yes.
And you keep dodging the question: what did he do that constitutes "fraud"? |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Alternative medicine
One of his suggestions for losing weight is to have 15 colonics over a span of 30 days.[3] On his first infomercial advertising his book, Trudeau gave out his medical opinions, such as the idea that if one's body's pH is alkaline, one will virtually never get sick. He also says that, through his research, all cancer patients he has observed have an acidic body.
Critics have disputed this statement, asserting that one's body can be neither basic nor acidic as blood pH is essentially neutral, tending to slightly alkaline, with a normal pH range of between 7.35 and 7.45; and any significant deviation from that could result in serious illness or death (acidosis or alkalosis).
On one of his latest infomercials, Trudeau offers a companion CD, Lose 30 Pounds in 30 Days � The Weight Loss Secret "They" Don't Want You to Know About, the title of which Trudeau says has been "censored by the FTC". Trudeau earlier promoted a version of this book on a CD with the title covered in an effort to establish his claims of censorship.
[edit] Support of the Church of Scientology
In Natural Cures, Trudeau recommends practicing Scientology/Dianetics to live a healthier lifestyle. It is uncertain whether he is a Scientologist himself, as he doesn't openly promote himself as such. |
presenting himself as an authority and then writing patently false stuff about pH levels in the body.
I tossed in the Scientology bit for some flavor. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| but are being covered up by the FDA and pharmaceutical companies (plausible |
Would these people doing the covering up be the same people (given the revolving door between corporations) who spent decades buying up and hiding all the amazing, incredible inventions that would make cars run for a year on a cupful of gasoline?
Same tired old story, different industry. Ho hum. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| but are being covered up by the FDA and pharmaceutical companies (plausible |
Would these people doing the covering up be the same people (given the revolving door between corporations) who spent decades buying up and hiding all the amazing, incredible inventions that would make cars run for a year on a cupful of gasoline?
Same tired old story, different industry. Ho hum. |
Thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation as usual. Ho hum. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
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Alternative medicine
One of his suggestions for losing weight is to have 15 colonics over a span of 30 days.[3] On his first infomercial advertising his book, Trudeau gave out his medical opinions, such as the idea that if one's body's pH is alkaline, one will virtually never get sick. He also says that, through his research, all cancer patients he has observed have an acidic body.
Critics have disputed this statement, asserting that one's body can be neither basic nor acidic as blood pH is essentially neutral, tending to slightly alkaline, with a normal pH range of between 7.35 and 7.45; and any significant deviation from that could result in serious illness or death (acidosis or alkalosis).
On one of his latest infomercials, Trudeau offers a companion CD, Lose 30 Pounds in 30 Days � The Weight Loss Secret "They" Don't Want You to Know About, the title of which Trudeau says has been "censored by the FTC". Trudeau earlier promoted a version of this book on a CD with the title covered in an effort to establish his claims of censorship.
[edit] Support of the Church of Scientology
In Natural Cures, Trudeau recommends practicing Scientology/Dianetics to live a healthier lifestyle. It is uncertain whether he is a Scientologist himself, as he doesn't openly promote himself as such. |
presenting himself as an authority and then writing patently false stuff about pH levels in the body.
I tossed in the Scientology bit for some flavor. |
You didn't toss in anything. You aren't a doctor- nor are you even remotely qualified to label anything "patently false". All you did was quote some other source (without providing the link I might add), not having even attempted to read the primary text, or to try the treatment itself. In short, you have no idea if what he has written is true or not. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that people's first ammendment freedoms should be protected. Let the forum of public opinion be used to weigh what a person claims to be true. I don't believe in everything he states, but I definitely believe that he is on to something. If you think he's pitching stuff that's fraudulent, then take him to court over it. Attack the ideas, not the person.
In a free society, the weakest member needs to be protected from the rich and powerful multi-corporations. The bottom line is: If you don't like Trudeau, don't but his book. (Vote for Clark, instead.  ) |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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He should have the right to creatively spew nonsensical claims while earning millions at the expense of the stupid.
Kevin Trudeau too. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I'm comfortable with individuals dissenting from established opinion. That happens in an open society. The costs of closing the society are greater than the costs of leaving it open. The mature answer isn't "!CENSOR!" but to meet poor ideas with better ideas to win the battle of ideas. |
In medicine, there is a very easy way to counter established opinion. Present your evidence and let it be peer reviewed. Established scientific claims have been challenged successfully in the past.
The fact is he is not trying to challenge established science. He is trying to make as much money as he possibly can off gullible and/or desperate people. Gullible people I don't care so much about but desperate sick people shouldn't be exploited like this.
The way medical science works has flaws, but it does work. This man is not trying to improve the system at all but just appealing to people's in built paranoia for his own ends. This man has been in prision for fraud, has headed a pyramid scheme and was banned by the FTC from appearing in infomercials after being caught making fraudulent claims time and again.
For god's sake, just take a look at the products, programs and books he promotes. It does not take the most cynical person in the world to see him for what he is. |
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