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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
Wow. Asinine rage? Nah, more like a common reaction to a really slimy position.
Your posts are nothing but assumptions and poorly constructed inferences.
You continue to make claims about subsections of populations and whatever yet offer absolutely no proof.
A la Fox news. No irony at all. |
This isn't even a response, it's a whine. All you've been doing here is whining, and it's pathetic. |
Ah, now I'm whining? In other words, you don't have a leg to stand on and you're making stuff up as you go along.
As for pathetic, how about misquoting, and making claims in an argument which you can't back up with facts? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
Wow. Asinine rage? Nah, more like a common reaction to a really slimy position.
Your posts are nothing but assumptions and poorly constructed inferences.
You continue to make claims about subsections of populations and whatever yet offer absolutely no proof.
A la Fox news. No irony at all. |
This isn't even a response, it's a whine. All you've been doing here is whining, and it's pathetic. |
Ah, now I'm whining? |
No, you're not just whining now, you've been whining all along. "Hellofaniceguy, you're bad! You need to tip or stay home! You're a jerk! Boo hoo hoo!" It's embarassing.
| crescent wrote: |
| In other words, you don't have a leg to stand on and you're making stuff up as you go along. |
I'd say this sentence couldn't be less correct. You're just throwing out argumentative cliches at this point. I'm impressed that you managed to literally construct a sentence by taking 3 argumentative cliches and stitching them together, but at the same time I'm exasparated that you seem to think it somehow constitutes discussion rather than recognizing it's merely babble.
| crescent wrote: |
| As for pathetic, how about misquoting, and making claims in an argument which you can't back up with facts? |
I'm pretty sure you're a poorly-educated ex-waiter that doesn't actually understand what argumentation is. But yeah, it's a fact that most waiters are not struggling single mothers who couldn't possibly get another job, and if you don't know that, you're irredeemably ignorant about the world around you. Given your entire case -- and I use the word case loosely for what is really just an emotional appeal -- rests upon such a tiny minority of waiters, it's understandably uncompelling.
That's what you've added to this thread: a demand that he tip or stay home (why you think you can demand anything is beyond me), and a justification for that demand using hypothetical "otherwise unemployable single mothers." |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
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LOL! Wonderful stuff, Fox news. How to be a hypocrite in one easy post.
Not even worth reading anymore. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
LOL! Wonderful stuff, Fox news. How to be a hypocrite in one easy post.
Not even worth reading anymore. |
This is a good example of trying to save face after getting totally crushed. Instead of coming to terms with how pathetically incorrect you were all along, how terrible your argumentation is, and how embarassing your whining is, why not just call the other person and hypocrite and bow out? |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Also, I'm going out on a limb here, but this place probably isn't packed to the gills on a friday night with a 20 minute wait-list. |
Who cares if it's not packed to the gills?
| Quote: |
| But the price raise WILL line the owner's pocket. The law of unintended consequences dictates that the LAST thing that will happen is that 15% goes directly towards replacing the tip. |
Durr, the waiter is already getting a raise in wages. The raise in wage might compensate for loss of tip, or it might not, but either way, there's a raise in wage. You already know for a fact that the 15% increase won't go directly to the owner. Atleast some of it will go to the waiter in the wage increase. And FYI, management buys and prepares the food, the waiter just serves it. They really can't complain if management gets most of the bill.
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The reason they are paid less per hour is BECAUSE of the tips.
You believe that they are paid less per hour and that they need tips to make up for that.
The government, the restaurant, the waiter, and in most cases the diner, understand that waiter's get paid less per hour because they make tips (keeping them close to somewhat above 'minimum wage') In return they acknowledge that there is an expectation of tipping. |
Well, the argument was that without the tip, they can't make ends meet. So why not work at McD and not worry about the tip???? They have choices. They just choose to work as waiters, even though they can easily work elsewhere.
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| Right, just like raising taxes by X amount would balance the budget or making drugs illegal would make people stop doing drugs. Got any other push-button ideas? |
In the old tipping system, a ten dollar meal with a 15 percent tip is is 11.50. In the new system, raise the price of the ten dollar meal to 11.50 and get rid of the tip. Pay the waiter the min wage and now everybody is happy. Some waiters will get paid more, some will get paid way less. But atleast they are getting min wage and can't complain.
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| Apparently you feel entitled to good service without having to pay for it. |
I'm entitled to accurate/adequate service when I pay for my meal. Tell me, why do I get great service at Best buy or Quiznos? I never tip there.
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| The waiter could just drop off your plate haphazardly and say "eat and get out". That doesn't violate any of the terms of service and they are fulfilling your requirements. |
No business on earth would say "buy and get out" or "eat and get out" nor would they throw items at you. So That's not adequate service at all. Waiters should just place the plate down and give me the bill when I ask for it. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So in other words you don't like to give gifts, especially if someone does something nice for you? |
Then why don't we tip bus drivers now? What about the clerk at the drug store? Surely, we should start tipping the cooks too. Why not just tip everybody who serves you? |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| hellofaniceguy wrote: |
We will continue to eat out like we always do! And actually, we eat out around 4/5 times a week and never tip. You want to tip, be my guest! No sweat of my balls! If you don't like the wages, don't work for the place! But don't expect everyone to tip just because that's the way it's been done!
Most of the people I know, hang with or associate with also don't tip. It's a choice....I respect yours to tip; it's a two way street....respect others. |
Bottom line is, you don't want to tip. I get it. I don't respect it because it doesn't prove anything other than the fact you are cheap. You want to eat in overpriced restaurants, even though you are opposed to them, yet you won't tip because it is a factor of something you are opposed to. Brilliant.
It isn't going to change anything and it isn't helping anyone. I could understand if this was actually going to accomplish something, but it never will.
You need to justify your position by saying restaurant owners overcharge. I understand you need this kind of justification. You also need to add little tidbits which seem like obvious fabrications, such as 'being upfront' and 'most of your friends are the same'.
You're full of it.
While I certainly don't condone it, you're probably getting some extras in your food as well. Thems the breaks. |
The guy says he doesn't believe in the custom of tipping, and thus doesn't do it. That should be enough for you to nod your head in disagreement and move on. I don't see why you have to keep debating. It isn't going to change the fact that he will not tip and that is that.
I disagree with tipping 10-20% for a meal that takes basically zero skill to bring from a kitchen to my table. Unlike hellofaniceguy I don't go eat at places like that in the West. The main reason is the tipping. I feel like after 13% or so sales tax on my meal, another 20% is ridiculous. I'd rather eat spend the money on fast food, or just cook my own food at home. I was in Canada for the past 3 years and I can count on 1 hand how many times I went to a sit down restaurant. Only once was I the one paying, and my wife and I both thought it was a total waste of money. The food wasn't that spectacular, and after the price of the meal, taxes and tip, we would have been better off spending the $75 on something else.
What I do tip is my hairstylist and delivery guys. People who you see regularly and provide a service, yet get paid a crappy wage by their employer.
The culture of tipping needs to go. Employers need to pay more and not rely on the generosity of the clients.
I find it a faulty argument saying that some of these people have no other jobs that they can do.
It seems like in the States they get paid WAY lower than minimum wage. In Ontario, Canada the wage is only a couple dollars lower and there is no mandatory taxation. Raise the wage to be minimum wage and ditch the damn tipping. I bet $100 most service staff would quit, because the reality is, they are making a hell of a lot more than minimum wage and they know what a racket it is. Especially bartenders who by making a drink or popping the top off a bottle of beer rake it in with the tips. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
The guy says he doesn't believe in the custom of tipping, and thus doesn't do it. That should be enough for you to nod your head in disagreement and move on. I don't see why you have to keep debating. It isn't going to change the fact that he will not tip and that is that.
I find it a faulty argument saying that some of these people have no other jobs that they can do.
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I see, so these forums are not for debating then? I'm not trying to change anyone, it's the other side that thinks they are accomplishing something. I'm just voicing an opinion. You're welcome not to read.
I continued debating because i was misquoted, and because I think the argument of the non-tipper presented here is just something to hide behind.
The idea of keeping a few bucks from a server, while giving wads of it to someone who's got all the power in the system, is absolutely ludicrous.
If you don't want to tip, fine. I already said that. Just keep the bullshot out of it.
I'm familiar with Fox on these forums and I should have known better not to even answer. Now that the O'Reilly factor has moved out of reality, I HAVE bowed out.
For the record, I don't recall saying that these people have no other jobs to do. I said that serving is a job that will provide enough funds for those with little other choices. Bars and high priced restaurants are only one part of the market and arguably it is not the largest part. There are just as many if not more diner type eateries, pubs and bars with low prices and no frills. I grew up in one of the poorest cities in Canada. Hamilton. The town has been dead for a long time, and I can walk into any neighborhood bar or restaurant and see proof of the point I'm making. Any city in Altlantic Canada will punctuate it, and then there are the rural areas.
The people working there have little choices in life, and they are barely getting through.
Minimum wage means bills don't get paid. Serving means they do. Is it their fault the system is what it is?
No, but then you have people with enough extra cash to be eating out 4-5 times a week at price gouging venues, and they are quite happy giving all that money away for no value in return. Yet when it comes to giving some of that money to someone who actually needs it, oh no.. there's a point to make. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Well, I can't say I'm surprised Mr. Pink is against tipping... 
I have no problem being against tipping, but still tip so as not to be a jerk. That's actually pretty good character right there. Heck, even I have come out as being not in favor the percentage tipping system.
If you're against and still tip (like fox and mayorgc) that's cool. We may debate, but at least both of them are decent enough to tip.
But the fact is changing "the system" in the U.S. would be far to difficult and cause massive disruptions. This is why I favor the per item service charge. It's essentially the price increase BUT it ensures that the money goes directly to the server. As long as the tipping system and wage scale exists in the U.S., you ahve to take that into account when considering waiters "attitudes".
Also most people are fine with some jobs being ones where people get tipped and others are not. Most people seem to understand that every job is different and they all have different ways of earning pay and different responsibilities and benefits.
A waiter is not a fast food register operator or a cook or a bus driver or a policeman. Those people are fine with not working for tips, for one the cook doesn't deal face to face with the customer and probably enjoys that. The waiter does. It's okay for two people to work at the same place and have different responsibilities and get paid differently. That's normal.
It's nice that some people want their restaurant experience to be going up to a counter, filling out a form and then picking up their food. Fine, then dine at a place like that.
But arguing that tipping is bad because restaurants "should be like that" is just silly. Most people don't want that. They want "the restaurant experience"
As for those who don't tip period. Geez, lighten up. I'm sorry, but that's just petty. At some point you have to lay down your own opinion of the way things ought to be and go with the flow. This isn't a crusade over racism or sexism here, this is tipping. When you don't tip out of principle you're not a crusader, you're just a jerk.
At some point you have to acknowledge that if you are THAT against tipping that you refuse to tip, you probably shouldn't dine at full-service restaurants and stick to Fast-Food and Quick Service Casual. You can't always have your cake and eat it too.
Open up the wallet and share some money. It brightens a persons day. It also (hopefully) starts a cycle of optimism and happiness that goes from one person to another. Or you can have a cycle of "this is mine, hands off!"
Lastly, how many people are truly against tipping because of reason X and how many are just stingy and how many are against it just to have some issue to go against the grain with? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| NovaKart wrote: |
I do prefer American restaurants to European ones though, despite the tipping. |
Same here. Service tends to be a lot better. |
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Grimda
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Most people who eat at sit-down restaurants in the US tip. Most who go into a restaurant want to be waited on. Sure there are some cheapskates who don't want to tip, and that's fine. That is their choice, but they probably shouldn't eat at the same restaurant twice because servers remember people who don't tip. That doesn't mean that they are going to do something nasty to their food, it just means that they will most likely be ignored and they will have to go out of their way to be served, which I guess is what someone like Fox prefers anyway.
I currently work in a restaurant. When I moved back to the US a year and a half ago there weren't really that many jobs, so I went back to work at the place I worked at while I was in college. Would I rather be doing something else? Sure. But, it's not that bad. I work about 20-25 hours a week and make around $800 a week in cash. My hourly wage is $2.13/hr, but I rarely ever see a paycheck because taxes are taken out of that. I pay for my own health insurance, although my work does provide insurance, but you must work at least 32 hours per week and I don't want to work that much.
I am not a single mother who is barely hovering above the poverty line, nor am I uneducated. I don't think that I am similar to an "Indian Beggar Man" because I am providing a service that MOST people want and MOST people pay (very well) for. I can get my shifts covered any time I want to do something else, or just don't feel like working. I would not do the job for minimum wage, and I seriously doubt that anyone I work with would. If we were paid the same as McDonalds employees then you would have servers who barely understand English and irresponsible high school students who don't give a crap about their jobs. Would you prefer that kind of service, Fox and hellofaniceguy? |
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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimda wrote: |
Most people who eat at sit-down restaurants in the US tip. Most who go into a restaurant want to be waited on. Sure there are some cheapskates who don't want to tip, and that's fine. That is their choice, but they probably shouldn't eat at the same restaurant twice because servers remember people who don't tip. That doesn't mean that they are going to do something nasty to their food, it just means that they will most likely be ignored and they will have to go out of their way to be served, which I guess is what someone like Fox prefers anyway.
I currently work in a restaurant. When I moved back to the US a year and a half ago there weren't really that many jobs, so I went back to work at the place I worked at while I was in college. Would I rather be doing something else? Sure. But, it's not that bad. I work about 20-25 hours a week and make around $800 a week in cash. My hourly wage is $2.13/hr, but I rarely ever see a paycheck because taxes are taken out of that. I pay for my own health insurance, although my work does provide insurance, but you must work at least 32 hours per week and I don't want to work that much.
I am not a single mother who is barely hovering above the poverty line, nor am I uneducated. I don't think that I am similar to an "Indian Beggar Man" because I am providing a service that MOST people want and MOST people pay (very well) for. I can get my shifts covered any time I want to do something else, or just don't feel like working. I would not do the job for minimum wage, and I seriously doubt that anyone I work with would. If we were paid the same as McDonalds employees then you would have servers who barely understand English and irresponsible high school students who don't give a crap about their jobs. Would you prefer that kind of service, Fox and hellofaniceguy? |
And how many times throughout your life have you eaten out, had bad service, etc...and still left a tip? And left talking/thinking about the bad service. Many times I would venture to say.
I feel that the restaurant owners and other business owners who are living high on the hog with the nice homes and cars should pay their employees more! How else could these owners afford the nice things...because of their employees! And here their employees are struggling to pay their rent and living from paycheque to paycheque! That's my gripe. Period. Charge more for the food I say and pay your staff more! But to leave 15%~20% in a tip for a 30 dollar meal...no I say. It has nothing to do with being cheap Charlie.....
Some restaurants add a surcharge to the bill that is supposed to be a "built in" tiptiptip. This money is theoretically divided up among busboys and other staff, however it is not unheard of that some restaurant owners keep this fee, and the customer is still expected to tiptiptip. If the restaurant bill comes with a surcharge, I ask the waitress/waiter to remove it. If the answer is no, I tell the owner/manager to remove it��don't tell me how I have to spend my money...pay your staff more. Tipping is way out of hand I say. Whether or not you wish to patronize that particular restaurant again in the future is up to you! I�ll pay 5 bucks more for the meal�just pay your staff a decent wage! A restaurant is just another place to eat. And many around. Do you tip at a restaurant in korea? Japan? Those wait staff in korea earn far less than their American counterparts and work far more hours!
I have seen many wait staff in the U.S. head right for the table when the customer leaves and grab the tip left of the table before the customer gets out the door! Very tacky. It�s a shame that they have to rely on tips�I also see many times, customers making comments to each other about "having" to leave a tip when they don't want to.
Waiter/waitress comes over, takes my order, brings the water/drink(s) and food and I never see them again until it's time to leave.
I have actually done this as have my friends....we are waiting for more whatever....no waiter/waitress...we call the restaurant from our table for service...
Same with tipping the tow truck driver, taxi driver, barber, spa workers, hotel maids, auto mechanic, and on and on� |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
No, but then you have people with enough extra cash to be eating out 4-5 times a week at price gouging venues, and they are quite happy giving all that money away for no value in return. Yet when it comes to giving some of that money to someone who actually needs it, oh no.. there's a point to make. |
you're equating waiters to beggars on the street. The place I worked at, the waiters were making a ton of money each night. They were ALL twenty something young adults, no kids and they all went clubbing after their shift. They definitely weren't single mothers, they were wannabe actors. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, I can't say I'm surprised Mr. Pink is against tipping...
I have no problem being against tipping, but still tip so as not to be a jerk. That's actually pretty good character right there. Heck, even I have come out as being not in favor the percentage tipping system.
If you're against and still tip (like fox and mayorgc) that's cool. We may debate, but at least both of them are decent enough to tip.
But the fact is changing "the system" in the U.S. would be far to difficult and cause massive disruptions. This is why I favor the per item service charge. It's essentially the price increase BUT it ensures that the money goes directly to the server. As long as the tipping system and wage scale exists in the U.S., you ahve to take that into account when considering waiters "attitudes".
Also most people are fine with some jobs being ones where people get tipped and others are not. Most people seem to understand that every job is different and they all have different ways of earning pay and different responsibilities and benefits.
A waiter is not a fast food register operator or a cook or a bus driver or a policeman. Those people are fine with not working for tips, for one the cook doesn't deal face to face with the customer and probably enjoys that. The waiter does. It's okay for two people to work at the same place and have different responsibilities and get paid differently. That's normal.
It's nice that some people want their restaurant experience to be going up to a counter, filling out a form and then picking up their food. Fine, then dine at a place like that.
But arguing that tipping is bad because restaurants "should be like that" is just silly. Most people don't want that. They want "the restaurant experience"
As for those who don't tip period. Geez, lighten up. I'm sorry, but that's just petty. At some point you have to lay down your own opinion of the way things ought to be and go with the flow. This isn't a crusade over racism or sexism here, this is tipping. When you don't tip out of principle you're not a crusader, you're just a jerk.
At some point you have to acknowledge that if you are THAT against tipping that you refuse to tip, you probably shouldn't dine at full-service restaurants and stick to Fast-Food and Quick Service Casual. You can't always have your cake and eat it too.
Open up the wallet and share some money. It brightens a persons day. It also (hopefully) starts a cycle of optimism and happiness that goes from one person to another. Or you can have a cycle of "this is mine, hands off!"
Lastly, how many people are truly against tipping because of reason X and how many are just stingy and how many are against it just to have some issue to go against the grain with? |
Just because people don't tip doesn't mean they are jerks.
A lot of times, servers don't deserve tips. If a server takes your order, brings your food and brings your bill, why does he/she deserve a tip?
Also, to all the pro-tippers out there, you can get western dining experiences in countries where there is no tipping. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| I'm familiar with Fox on these forums and I should have known better not to even answer. Now that the O'Reilly factor has moved out of reality, I HAVE bowed out. |
Anyone who would compare me to Fox News in anything but an ironic fashion either isn't very familiar with me, or is a total buffoon who is too caught up in his own righteous indignation to recognize reality.
That said, yeah, I think it's safe to say you're familiar with me, so we all know which of those you are.
| crescent wrote: |
| For the record, I don't recall saying that these people have no other jobs to do. |
Then you have quite a short memory:
| crescent wrote: |
| I know it is the only job they can get that puts them over the poverty line because IT'S THE JOB THEY ARE DOING. |
The fact that I destroyed this argument with casual ease doesn't mean you didn't say it. You said they can't get any other job that puts them over the poverty line, and your reason for believing it was because they took the job in the first place. |
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