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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Many of you here have no business opining on this as harshly and matter-of-factly as you do.
What do you know about security needs, let alone actual military service? |
+2 |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| Reggie wrote: |
| We may have spent a gazillion dollars on our military over the past 50 years, but we do have a win in Grenada to show for it. So, I don't want to hear anyone complain. |
We did O.K. in Panama as well. |
Let's not forget my favorite:
US Aircraft and Elite Navy SEALs Defeat Three Somalis in a Lifeboat |
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Korlingus
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Their doing the wrong thing |
I have a really good lesson plan on "there," "they're," and "their." PM me. |
He's just pissed he couldn't pass the ASVAB. |
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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| No, there aren't innocent people in every warzone, and every time a soldier kills is not necessarily in a warzone either. As such, your objection is disputable on two different terms. |
No? Not even one? Are you sure? |
Yes, because of the Air Force and Navy, we can be sure of this. Sea to sea and air to air combat are often innocent-free, so even if we granted that every land battle had innocents present (something I would not grant without extraordinary proof), we still have examples of innocent-free fighting.
But, you don't care about that, because you haven't really thought it through. You came to your conclusion, and you do what you can to justify the conclusion, rather than the reverse. |
So when the country that lost the naval battle falls to a country that rapes, pillages, and murders the innocents of the losing country in the ensuing invasion, I guess innocents aren't really involved?
I concede that said innocents aren't in immediate danger but it's irresponsible to casually dismiss that innocent people are never involved in warfare. They always are to some capacity.
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Yes, yes, it's all propaganda, no need to engage with me in a philosophical discussion, soldiers cause war and that's that. |
Stop whining, I engaged you sufficiently, and you answered me with ridiculous questions like asking me if I was really sure that innocent-free battlegrounds existed. |
You have the Internet-posting sense of a six year old if you think I was whining. Still waiting on your response to the rest of my post...here, I'll be a gentleman and post the main argument:
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The assertion that war goes away when soldiers go away is a laughable fallacy that fails to grasp the human condition. People will always fight each other. And people will always desire to band together. Put these two things together and we have war. Unless you support a mass lobotomy of the human species there will always be war. So, with that premise, doesn't it follow that, in the face of this ugly reality that we as a society employ individuals to defend ourselves against aggressors who initiate war?
I think your problem is with the current duties of a soldier. You don't agree when a soldier bombs civilians? A fair point, it absolutely shouldn't happen. I'd love to see the U.S. disengage in it's two wars and come home. That way, our soldiers would be fulfilling their actual duties, which is to defend our country and our allies from foreign aggressors. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ropebreezy wrote: |
| I concede that said innocents aren't in immediate danger ... |
Good. That's all that matters with regards to the point I made.
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| You have the Internet-posting sense of a six year old if you think I was whining. Still waiting on your response to the rest of my post...here, I'll be a gentleman and post the main argument: |
Your argument is irrelevent, because you came in here arguing with my claim that soldiers are paid killers. Nothing in your two paragraphs contradicts the fact that they're paid killers. You're just trying to argue these paid killers will always be around. That's fine: they're still paid killers. Even if you want to falsely claim that the United States Military (for example) is primarily defensive in its duties (an utterly ridiculous claim), they're still paid killers that are decidedly different than police officers. I don't care if you think we're justified in using paid killers. I don't care if you think being a paid killer is noble. It's all utterly irrelevent to the fact that they are paid killers.
If you've got some way to prove soldiers aren't paid killers, go ahead and present it (you don't, and it's impossible to prove because it's a lie, but try if you like). That's as far as I'm willing to discuss with you, though: as soon as you rolled into this thread babbling trite rubbish about "simplistic world views" you marked yourself as someone it's a waste of time to have serious intellectual discussion with. I'll defend my claim that soldiers are paid killers against you, but nothing else. I don't care if you think soldiers will always be around, I don't care if you think they're justified, and so forth. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| If you've got some way to prove soldiers aren't paid killers, |
Could you please clarify the tasks you consider a soldier carries out. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be taken in by your pro-warfare propaganda. Fortunately for you, much of society is taken in by it, and soldiers are seen as heroes as a result. |
Yes, soldiers are presumed heroes, Fox. Because they are sent out by effete philosophers like us to take care of the dirty business, sometimes the business isn't even necessary, but they're sent anyway. That's why they're presumed heroes. |
That's an interesting way to put it. I have to say, though, I don't see that as particularly heroic. |
Oh, okay. Soldiers put their lives on the line to defend the Republic. That's heroic, even when they aren't actually defending the Republic, and just putting their lives on the line to serve it. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: |
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That is not bad, but I still like mine better. |
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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| That's as far as I'm willing to discuss with you, though: as soon as you rolled into this thread babbling trite rubbish about "simplistic world views" you marked yourself as someone it's a waste of time to have serious intellectual discussion with. I'll defend my claim that soldiers are paid killers against you, but nothing else. I don't care if you think soldiers will always be around, I don't care if you think they're justified, and so forth. |
You really are a bore Fox. Fine, soldiers are paid killers. You clearly have nothing else to say on the matter since that's all you seem to insist on when it comes to this topic.
If all you're going to say about such an important topic is "Soldiers are paid killers" I think it's a pretty fair judgment that your views on this topic are overly simplistic. Most sane people acknowledge the world is more complex than the black-and-white garbage you seem to imply. But if I'm wrong feel free to actually speak your mind. |
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