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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
But you conveniently omitted the next sentence of the wiki article:
The terms dongpo (동포) or gyopo (교포) in Korean refers to people of ethnic Korean ancestry who have lived the majority of their lives outside Korea. It can also mean simply any Korean who lives outside Korea.[2] However these terms have become derogatory in most areas, and are not commonly used.
I kinda disagree with the "not commonly used" part, but I do agree with the "derogatory" part.
And basically because he was raised by non-Koreans, Steelrails is not ethnically Korean, only racially Korean. It's not the same thing as a gyopo (which just means "emigrant"). |
I don't think it's a slur at all. Lots of Koreans use it to self-identify themselves. And Koreans in Korea will even use the term to describe others.
And If Steelrails biological parents are Korea, then yes, he's ethnically Korean. That can never be changed. |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
But you conveniently omitted the next sentence of the wiki article:
The terms dongpo (동포) or gyopo (교포) in Korean refers to people of ethnic Korean ancestry who have lived the majority of their lives outside Korea. It can also mean simply any Korean who lives outside Korea.[2] However these terms have become derogatory in most areas, and are not commonly used.
I kinda disagree with the "not commonly used" part, but I do agree with the "derogatory" part.
And basically because he was raised by non-Koreans, Steelrails is not ethnically Korean, only racially Korean. It's not the same thing as a gyopo (which just means "emigrant"). |
I don't think it's a slur at all. Lots of Koreans use it to self-identify themselves. And Koreans in Korea will even use the term to describe others.
And If Steelrails biological parents are Korea, then yes, he's ethnically Korean. That can never be changed. |
Thank you mayorgc. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
But you conveniently omitted the next sentence of the wiki article:
The terms dongpo (동포) or gyopo (교포) in Korean refers to people of ethnic Korean ancestry who have lived the majority of their lives outside Korea. It can also mean simply any Korean who lives outside Korea.[2] However these terms have become derogatory in most areas, and are not commonly used.
I kinda disagree with the "not commonly used" part, but I do agree with the "derogatory" part.
And basically because he was raised by non-Koreans, Steelrails is not ethnically Korean, only racially Korean. It's not the same thing as a gyopo (which just means "emigrant"). |
I don't think it's a slur at all. Lots of Koreans use it to self-identify themselves. And Koreans in Korea will even use the term to describe others.
And If Steelrails biological parents are Korea, then yes, he's ethnically Korean. That can never be changed. |
You're confusing race and ethnicity, and they are not the same thing.
From Wikipedia, "An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed."
If Steelrails identifies as a member of the Korean ethnic group, then he is. But he just said that he doesn't, so he isn't.
On the other hand, I have an IRL friend who is an adoptee, her biological parents are Korean, but she never knew them and she was raised by white parents in America. She, however, goes to Korean church, has tons of Korean friends, and has learned the Korean language. She acts Korean, and she strongly and actively identifies herself as ethnically and culturally Korean, therefore she is.
Your ethnicity is not about your skin color or your "blood," and it's not biological. It's about who you identify with. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic
"In North America, by contrast, 'race' most commonly means color, and 'ethnics' are the descendents of relatively recent immigrants from non-English-speaking countries."
"5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances."
Ethnic is a broad term.
Ethnic can either mean culturally or biologically. So if someone is an ethnic Korean, that person is biologically Korean, or cold be someone of non-Korean decent that grew up in Korea and practices Korean culture.
So ethnicity can be about your "blood". |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
| mayorgc wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
But you conveniently omitted the next sentence of the wiki article:
The terms dongpo (동포) or gyopo (교포) in Korean refers to people of ethnic Korean ancestry who have lived the majority of their lives outside Korea. It can also mean simply any Korean who lives outside Korea.[2] However these terms have become derogatory in most areas, and are not commonly used.
I kinda disagree with the "not commonly used" part, but I do agree with the "derogatory" part.
And basically because he was raised by non-Koreans, Steelrails is not ethnically Korean, only racially Korean. It's not the same thing as a gyopo (which just means "emigrant"). |
I don't think it's a slur at all. Lots of Koreans use it to self-identify themselves. And Koreans in Korea will even use the term to describe others.
And If Steelrails biological parents are Korea, then yes, he's ethnically Korean. That can never be changed. |
Thank you mayorgc. |
I'm not sure what you are thanking, because it does nothing to prove anything you said. If his biological parents are Korean, he is racially Korean, but raised by white Americans. His ethnic heritage is derived from the people and group who raised him culturally - his white American parents. He does not identiyf as a gyopo, because that has different cultural meanings and expectations - largely that he was raised by Korean parents in America; he wasn't. He is an adoptee.
You should leave the heavy lifting to people who actually had to work this out from a young age and know what these meanings actually intend by actually living and interacting with them, rather than trying to foist your ill-formed opinions onto them. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Gyopo is not a derogatory term. Koreans use that term freely without any negative connotation, and is commonly used. That Wiki article is wrong saying that it is.
Last edited by jvalmer on Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You're confusing race and ethnicity, and they are not the same thing. |
There's only one race if you ask me, that's the human race.
from dictionary.com
eth⋅nic⋅i⋅ty /�noun, plural -ties.
1. ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association.
2. an ethnic group: Representatives of several ethnicities were present.
He can't change the fact that his Bio Parents were Korean. He's got Korean traits.
From dictionary.com
eth⋅nic �adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.
6. Obsolete. pagan; heathen.
Look at number 2, his origin is Korea. He's ethnically Korean. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnic
"In North America, by contrast, 'race' most commonly means color, and 'ethnics' are the descendents of relatively recent immigrants from non-English-speaking countries."
"5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances."
Ethnic is a broad term.
Ethnic can either mean culturally or biologically. So if someone is an ethnic Korean, that person is biologically Korean, or cold be someone of non-Korean decent that grew up in Korea and practices Korean culture.
So ethnicity can be about your "blood". |
Yes, it can, and for most people, it is. However, multi-heritage adoptees are a complicated lot who often have separated ethnicities and racial identities, therefore what applies for everyone else, doesn't necessarily apply to them. If you are NOT a multi-racial/heritage adoptee, you should really let us explain it to YOU, as we are the ones who LIVE it, and know it best. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You're confusing race and ethnicity, and they are not the same thing. |
There's only one race if you ask me, that's the human race.
from dictionary.com
eth⋅nic⋅i⋅ty /�noun, plural -ties.
1. ethnic traits, background, allegiance, or association.
2. an ethnic group: Representatives of several ethnicities were present.
He can't change the fact that his Bio Parents were Korean. He's got Korean traits.
From dictionary.com
eth⋅nic �adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.
6. Obsolete. pagan; heathen.
Look at number 2, his origin is Korea. He's ethnically Korean. |
Uhm, I don't think he ever said anything about changing his background or racial traits - he can't, and I'm sure Steelrails knows this, most likely, better than you, lol.
However, he CAN identify his unique identity encompassing all of his background (ethnicity and race) in a way that reflects his true background, parentage, and identity, which has TWO different circumstances for race and ethnicity, something the majority of the population never have to think about, integrate, or understand.
If he identifies as a gyopo, that is not exactly honest because it implies by cultural expectations that his ethnic parents were Korean; they are not.
He had no other choice but to identify as racially Korean, but as a multi-heritage adoptee, he also CHOOSES not to obliterate the circumstance of his ethnicity and adopted parents, because that would obliterate HIM. (If one can call self-obliteration a choice).
Very complicated stuff, which NONE of you understand unless you lived it.
edit added: Just to make the distinction clear between race and culture (ethnicity as I am using it here): "You are born into the world with race, but culture is what you learn."
You cannot fathom separating race and culture, unless you were separated from it at birth and have to reintegrate it in a way that makes sense for the unique circumstances of multi-heritage/racial adoptees.
edit again: Also, you point on item 2 says nothing new. It is exactly the same: and/or - ethnicity is an association with a group, and/or of the same race. We (mulit-heritage adoptees) are unique, in that we are "or". |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| calicoe wrote: |
Uhm, I don't think he ever said anything about changing his background or racial traits - he can't, and I'm sure Steelrails knows this, most likely, better than you, lol.
However, he CAN identify his unique identity encompassing all of his background (ethnicity and race) in a way that reflects his true background, parentage, and identity, which has TWO different circumstances for race and ethnicity, something the majority of the population never have to think about, integrate, or understand.
If he identifies as a gyopo, that is not exactly honest because it implies by cultural expectations that his ethnic parents were Korean; they are not.
He had no other choice but to identify as racially Korean, but as a multi-heritage adoptee, he also CHOOSES not to obliterate the circumstance of his ethnicity and adopted parents, because that would obliterate HIM. (If one can call self-obliteration a choice).
Very complicated stuff, which NONE of you understand unless you lived it.
edit added: Just to make the distinction clear between race and culture (ethnicity as I am using it here): "You are born into the world with race, but culture is what you learn."
You cannot fathom separating race and culture, unless you were separated from it at birth and have to reintegrate it in a way that makes sense for the unique circumstances of multi-heritage/racial adoptees.
edit again: Also, you point on item 2 says nothing new. It is exactly the same: and/or - ethnicity is an association with a group, and/or of the same race. We (mulit-heritage adoptees) are unique, in that we are "or". |
The original statement was that Steelrails isn't ethnically Korean. By definition, he IS ethnically Korean. That's all I'm referring to. I've never commented on culture or upbringing. His blood is Korean, which makes him ethnically Korean, he can't change his blood, therefore, he can't change his ethnicity.
I don't care about his identity, culture nor do I care about his background. But his blood is Korean, which means he belongs to the Korean ethnic group. His Parents are absolutely ethnic Koreans. His adopted parents however are not.
By the way, I'm not discounting anything you've said. I'm just stating that he's ethnically Korean.
And there's only one race. The human race. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
The original statement was that Steelrails isn't ethnically Korean. By definition, he IS ethnically Korean. That's all I'm referring to. I've never commented on culture or upbringing. His blood is Korean, which makes him ethnically Korean, he can't change his blood, therefore, he can't change his ethnicity.
I don't care about his identity, culture nor do I care about his background. But his blood is Korean, which means he belongs to the Korean ethnic group. His Parents are absolutely ethnic Koreans. His adopted parents however are not.
By the way, I'm not discounting anything you've said. I'm just stating that he's ethnically Korean.
And there's only one race. The human race. |
See, you're still talking about his race, you've just redefined the word "ethnicity" to mean "race," and are using it to replace "race" because it sounds less ugly.
Instead, you should just say that he's racially Korean, because that's what you really mean.
Ethnicity is a whole lot more than just bloodlines and skin color and facial features, and that's what you are not grasping, and what the dictionary does not and cannot explain. |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Redaxe. I've had enough of explaining it here. This is also personal for me because I get this crap all the time as well, from people who don't know anything trying to explain my racial and ethnic heritage to me.
REPEAT: Race and ethnicity are often bundled to together for everyone, but they are NOT the same. It is like bundling a house and land together, because you normally can't have one without the other. But, multi-racial adoptees are like the house without the original land - we move. Therefore, we use the and/or definitions of ethnicity - which it is, and/OR blood, understand? - to describe our separate ethnic and cultural background from blood, which is just as sacrosanct to identity, but most of you don't know this because you haven't had to explore it on such a deep-rooted and personal level.
Quite frankly, people who deem to tell us how to identify and claim to know better than the people who lived this out their entire existence are offensive. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
See, you're still talking about his race, you've just redefined the word "ethnicity" to mean "race," and are using it to replace "race" because it sounds less ugly.
Instead, you should just say that he's racially Korean, because that's what you really mean.
Ethnicity is a whole lot more than just bloodlines and skin color and facial features, and that's what you are not grasping, and what the dictionary does not and cannot explain. |
I didn't redefine anything. I'm just using the word the way it's defined. What I absolutely mean is that his blood is Korean. To me, Korean blood = ethnically Korean. To you, Korean blood = Racially Korean.
I know Ethnicity can mean a whole lot more than just bloodlines. I never stated otherwise. I just stated that ethnicity involves bloodlines. His blood is Korean, therefore, he's ethnically Korean.
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| winterwawa: Quit posting utter rubbish and people won't be against what you post. Your posts above aren't helping you in that matter. |
My, what wit. You have no counter argument, so that makes my post "utter rubbish."
Okay, so let's say for arguments sake that I am wrong. I concede that rail's use of the term adoptee in Korea means the same thing as using it in America. Okay, are we on the same page?
Does the fact that he is an adoptee preclude the reality of him being a gyppo? I think not. He can be one and still be the other. Is this not true?
If his biological mother was Korean, than he is a gyopo. It doesn't matter that he was adopted by an American family after his birth. It doesn't really even matter whether he was born in America or Korea. If his biological mother was Korean then his ancestry is Korean, and he is a gyopo.
And again, I state for the record that I am not using this as a derogatory term. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| winterwawa: Quit posting utter rubbish and people won't be against what you post. Your posts above aren't helping you in that matter. |
My, what wit. You have no counter argument, so that makes my post "utter rubbish."
Okay, so let's say for arguments sake that I am wrong. I concede that rail's use of the term adoptee in Korea means the same thing as using it in America. Okay, are we on the same page?
Does the fact that he is an adoptee preclude the reality of him being a gyppo? I think not. He can be one and still be the other. Is this not true?
If his biological mother was Korean, than he is a gyopo. It doesn't matter that he was adopted by an American family after his birth. It doesn't really even matter whether he was born in America or Korea. If his biological mother was Korean then his ancestry is Korean, and he is a gyopo.
And again, I state for the record that I am not using this as a derogatory term. |
Again, gyopo is just the Korean word for "emigrant." An adoptee is different from an emigrant. |
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