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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: The US has killed 288 000 Muslims since 1979 |
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Stephen Walt, of Walt/Mearsheimer fame, crunches the numbers. And throws in a few caveats...
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Third, the fact that people died as a result of certain U.S. actions does not by itself mean that those policy decisions were wrong. I'm a realist, and I accept the unfortunate fact that international politics is a rough business and sometimes innocent people die as a result of actions that may in fact be justifiable. For example, I don't think it was wrong to expel Iraq from Kuwait in 1991 or to topple the Taliban in 2001. Nor do I think it was wrong to try to catch Bin Laden -- even though people died in the attempt -- and I would support similar efforts to capture him today even if it placed more people at risk. In other words, a full assessment of U.S. policy would have to weigh these regrettable costs against the alleged benefits to the United States itself or the international community as a whole.
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Whatever one thinks about Walt's arguments here(and for the most part it just seems like straightforward empiricism, with the aforementioned caveats thrown in), I do agree with his dismal assessment of the Friedman column that was the immediate impetus for this analysis. What a load of self-pitying tripe that Friedman cranks out. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I'm weary of estimates, but it is certain that the number is going to be large. Without getting into a long discussion about 'root causes', I think we've found it.
TF is a really odd character. I don't think the guy has ever met a war he didn't like. The NYT has a very weak team of opinion writers. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I'm weary of estimates, but it is certain that the number is going to be large. Without getting into a long discussion about 'root causes', I think we've found it.
TF is a really odd character. I don't think the guy has ever met a war he didn't like. The NYT has a very weak team of opinion writers. |
I like Maureen Dowd myself, though admittedly she operates within certain parameters(ie. gossipy, non-hard fact discussions about politics) that make it easier for her not to screw up. As for Friedman, the guy is fixated on this Fukuyama-esque vision of American-led globalization bringing the world to prosperity and security, and, as you note, pretty much wants to steamroll over anyone who stands in the way of this. If you can get ahold of the NYRB from August 2005, they have a pretty decent take-down of his whole worldview.
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As it has done in the past, globalization is throwing up dilemmas that have no satisfactory solution. That does not mean they cannot be more or less intelligently managed, but what is needed is the opposite of the utopian imagination. In a curious twist, the utopian mind has migrated from left to right, and from the academy to the airport bookshop. In the nineteenth century it was political activists and radical social theorists such as Marx who held out the promise that new technology was creating a new world. Today some business gurus have a similar message. There are many books announcing a global economic transformation and suggesting that governments can be reengineered to adapt to it in much the same way as corporations. The World Is Flat is an outstanding example of this genre.
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TF is a really odd character. I don't think the guy has ever met a war he didn't like. The NYT has a very weak team of opinion writers. |
Hmm. Take a look at his appearance with Jon Stewart on the Daily Show this week. He does not support the surge or whatever it is supposed to be called in Afghanistan. And he makes a good point about the situation. He says when we went in in 2001 it was with very few troops because the Afghans themselves were in the fight with us. Now, not. Karzai stole the election and has little support.
I enjoy Maureen Dowd, too but Gail Collins is my girl. Kristoff is good and Frank Rich is great. I'd say the NYT has a great team of opinion writers. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| That number seems very, very low. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Seeing as how a few tactical nukes to basically wipe out the whole group, along with a couple more to eliminate communist Russia would have brought a utopian era to the rest of the world for the last 60 years, I think it's shameful that the US hasn't taken more! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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The question is nonsense and inflammatory; it seems to derive from a clash-of-civilizations perspective; and it wholly ignores any and all positive marks on this overly-simplistic tally sheet.
Sounds like a Michael Moore film, On the Other Hand.
And by the way, if killing poor, victimized Muslims is your forte, perhaps you ought to consider South Asia's Hindus, or Serbia, or Muslim-on-Muslim violence throughout the Near East, for that matter. Start with the Iran-Iraq war. Wait, that was all America's doing, no?
You were saying something about "tripe," I believe... |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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The number sounds extremely low. I would bet we've killed way more than that in Iraq alone just since 1990.
What nobody ever talks about is how our enemies were able to recruit only a couple dozen Muslims from various countries to attack America, while we've been able to recruit hundreds of thousands of Christians from the USA, Britain, Poland, South Korea, and elsewhere to attack Iraq.
While people tend to complain about Muslims committing acts of violence, and rightfully so, it's clear that a lot of Christians, Jews, and Muslims need to do some soul searching and get some life straightening. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmm. Take a look at his appearance with Jon Stewart on the Daily Show this week. He does not support the surge or whatever it is supposed to be called in Afghanistan. |
Oh, good. It took him 8 years to catch up. What a wonderful redemption story. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| How many Muslim lives has the US saved or made better in that time: Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia, Tsunami relif in Indonesia, earthquake relief in Pakistan, not to mention all the food and humanitarian aid to various and sundry. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| We have been very good to the Indonesians and that's something we can justifiably be proud of. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| Seeing as how a few tactical nukes to basically wipe out the whole group, along with a couple more to eliminate communist Russia would have brought a utopian era to the rest of the world for the last 60 years, I think it's shameful that the US hasn't taken more! |
TOS |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| TF is a really odd character. I don't think the guy has ever met a war he didn't like. The NYT has a very weak team of opinion writers. |
Hmm. Take a look at his appearance with Jon Stewart on the Daily Show this week. He does not support the surge or whatever it is supposed to be called in Afghanistan. And he makes a good point about the situation. He says when we went in in 2001 it was with very few troops because the Afghans themselves were in the fight with us. Now, not. Karzai stole the election and has little support.
I enjoy Maureen Dowd, too but Gail Collins is my girl. Kristoff is good and Frank Rich is great. I'd say the NYT has a great team of opinion writers. |
Personally I don't like Dowd at all. I find her to be a bit over the top and more air than substance. Gail Collins seems professional enough, but I don't read her much. Kristoff is very good at profiling people, and I agree that Rich is an entertaining read.
I like Thomas Friedman's push for clean energy and more of his criticism of domestic policies than his f.p. analysis, especially since the Iraq invasion.
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| The number sounds extremely low. I would bet we've killed way more than that in Iraq alone just since 1990. |
Agreed. At least indirectly. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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The question is nonsense and inflammatory; it seems to derive from a clash-of-civilizations perspective; and it wholly ignores any and all positive marks on this overly-simplistic tally sheet.
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I agree with gopher.
It kind of makes the non muslims look like they are supporting an attack on Islam. We know that isn't the case, in fact its probally the other way around.
Muslim extremists have to wake up to the fact, that its mostly ignorance on our part. We don't wake up thinking what muslim can we kill today.
We are concerned though, that this is how thier extremists view us. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
We don't wake up thinking what muslim can we kill today.
We are concerned though, that this is how thier extremists view us. |
You may worry about Islamic extremists traveling halfway around the world to kill you, but ordinary Muslims in Iraq and elsewhere have to worry about mainstream Christians and Jews traveling to the Middle East to kill them. |
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