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Foreigners Banned from Blue House Tours
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nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:27 am Post subject:

VanIslander wrote:

I thought Koreans had among the highest rates of H1N1 infection in the world???!!! Laughing

They have THE highest rate in the world.
That is to say...more infections than any other country.

Illnesses are a bit like technology. Korea didn't invent any but they sure know how to copy them en masse.

winterwawa

Joined: 06 May 2007

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:33 am Post subject:

nautilus wrote:

VanIslander wrote:

I thought Koreans had among the highest rates of H1N1 infection in the world???!!! Laughing

I like that. LOL Laughing

Sooke

Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Location: korea

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:38 am Post subject:

@winterwawa, Don't waste your time. These guys will defend anything as long as its happening to an E2 (or F2 for that matter.) A couple of months back a poster was relaying the story of his friend-an E2 single woman who went home with a Korean guy she had met in a bar. If I recall, she was promptly assaulted and punched in the face when she didn't consent to sex. These guys were all like: "well, what does she expect, she went home with him, it happens back home, blah-blah-blah." A little while after that, another poster was telling his story about when he was really drunk and decided to relieve himself by peeing next to a building. A Korean guy then came out and proceeded to kick the snot out of him. And these guys were like: "Good, peeing in public in Korea is extremely rude, and you have the right to beat someone up if he's peeing against your apartment building, etc." Yeah, because we've never seen a drunk ajosshi taking a leak in public. Now, if back home, your state legislature or house of parliament or what have you had a sign which said "Due to risk of exposure to tuberculosis, we are banning tours for Korean citizens and children under 18." Do you think these guys would say "Well, that's your government's decision, a lot worse has happened in the past both in Korea and America?" Yeah, of course not. And besides, our countries wouldn't do such a thing, period. I appreciate you fighting the good fight, but your time would be better spent talking to a brick wall. These guys won't change their tune, at least not until they're back in the big ol' mean, racist, imperialist, evil USA.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:54 am Post subject:

Quote:

And so you just figured I was too stupid to consider that other foreigners might be affected by discrimination? And where is this "victim narrative" that you speak about? You really ought to think before you type.

The victim narrative is dripping all over your post. The angry tone, the comparisons of your situation to Jim Crow. Really...

Your tone clearly implied that you were taking this as another round in the "anti-English teacher" barrel.

Quote:

I am drawing an analogy. Perhaps you missed that class in debate class. While the specifics are not the same, the name of what happened in America against people of color and the name of what happens here everyday against foreigners of all colors is the same. It is called discrimination.

Analogies only work if they are of comparable circumstances. Your analogy is yes, an analogy, but not a good one. THAT'S the difference. You should draw good analogies, not bad ones.

Quote:

No one knows you are a foreign national until you open your mouth to speak.

Except by my body language...and the company I keep.

Quote:

Let me ask you, have you ever had a Koren refuse to get on an elevator with you because you were not Korean?

Koreans have changed bus seats to move away from me, is that close enough?

Quote:

Have you had your girlfriend or wife called a *beep* in public because she was with an American?

Dirty looks and questions, yes.

Quote:

Have you been refused service at any store or business because you were not the same color as the owner of the shop?

This too. Went into a flower shop to buy some flowers and had the lady running it kick me out because I couldn't speak Korean.

Next.

I had similar things happen in the States. Did I hate on the States, no. Did I adopt the victim narrative in the States, no.

Crap happens in life. Some people suck. That's life. You just go and deal with the people that are cool and take your dollar elsewhere.

There is no free pass in this world that says "I will never be the victim of ignorance"

Quote:

But then you aren't a true American, are you?

So I have to pass your "true American test?" That's REALLY American right there.

Sorry, but plenty of Americans agree with what I have to say- Yeah you have to take an AIDS test, whoop de whoop. Yeah, you're treated differently as an immigrant, whoop-de whoop. I for one favor stricter immigration standards for America, so I am consistent.

Quote:

So a Korean being discriminated against while living in America is okay?

If they aren't a citizen, then yes. There are certain privileges for citizens. This is okay with me. Yes, immigrants should have CBCs and HIV tests. That seems reasonable.

Quote:

so discrimination, according to you is okay. Right?

Yes, because unlike some people who think the word discrimination is automatically bad, I understand that people discriminate all the time and that sometimes it is necessary. Loans are discriminatory. Credit is discriminatory. Bars with cover fees/dress codes are discriminatory. Good for them.

Quote:

If you don't know the details you shouldn't have said anything. As they say IN AMERICA, the devil is in the details. You and another poster, who I won't mention by name, are infamous for the things you have been "slightly involved in". And, just for the record, they didn't single out foreigners, they also banned everyone under 18. So, I guess your advice wasn't wholly ignored

I was more involved than you. So by your logic you DEFINITELY shouldn't say anything.

Or is it okay for you to say something with absolutely no involvement, but it's wrong for me with slight involvement to say nothing?

Quote:

Yea, right. Again, a Korean-American who looks like every other Korean, telling us how to act in the land he was born in. Sounds like sound advice to me.

I'm telling the people here who had absolutely no involvement in this what the circumstances were, not telling them how to act.

In fact as I said, there is a possibility that the Ks were boneheaded anyway and DID act insensitively. There are also other possibilities.

As someone who yes, tends to lean apologist, but also tries to maintain a level keel, I acknowledge the possibility that Korean insensitivity occurred during this incident. But I also tried to show that the issue wasn't as cut and dry as people say and that there is a lot more to this issue than just "anti-foreigner sentiment".

Quote:

"The whole agent scenario"?

Are you kidding me? You come up with the most ridiculous off the wall crap to defend this place.

Right, NK agents and constant minor attempts to test security here are completely ludicrous ideas. Rolling Eyes

Look, the bashers (not necessarily you) tend to put forth this idea of Chinese intervention/NK agents/Loose Korean Law Enforcement/SK 5th column to make us feel paranoid that one day all the waygooks are going to be slaughtered in some incident. So if all that is true, wouldn't it be reasonable for the SKs to be cautious (to say nothing of being paranoid) of said groups?

If SK goes left, the bashers say they should have gone right. If SK foes right, the bashers say they should have gone left.

At some point you have to realize that some people will criticize no matter what and that there is no pleasing them.

Jove

Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: Over the hill

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:56 am Post subject: An example

I just heard a story from my roommate. He was giving a presentation in his masters class about anti-American sentiment in Korea when he used the word "xenophobic" when talking about the this issue as an example. A male Korean student didn't know the definition of the word so asked for it to be defined. Roommate: "Essentially, it means that people are afraid of foreigners (or something in that vein)." Male Korean: thinks for a short moment while turning red, "We aren't afraid of foreigners, we HATE them." Everyone in the class was silent while a Korean female turns to the other student and says, "You just proved his point."

Old Gil

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:57 am Post subject:

The Norks would GET BY these screenings if they knew what the hell they were doing. Do you think they'd waltz in with their I HEART THE DEAR LEADER ID card? No, they'd forge a Korean ID.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:58 am Post subject:

winterwawa wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

My final thoughts on the matter:

Yes, this is discrimination and is wrong. It was a badly thought out and planned policy and HOPEFULLY will be repealed soon.

Hopefully, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

That said, the stuff that some of you are suggesting is a bit rich, particularly so, since this wouldn't have been an issue had it not been printed. How many of you have gone or were planning to go?

Why does it matter whether any of us were planning to go or not? How many black people were never going to get on the bus that Rosa Parks got on? Some? None? Does that mean that she should have just walked on to the back seat where the colored people were supposed to sit?

As for writing letters, ever hear of the boy that cried "Wolf"? Sure go ahead and write your letters... and you might even get some articles...but sooner or later 'Korea fatigue' is going to set in among editors and journalists if you are going to complain about everything as trivial (and it is trival compared to some of the things that go on here) as this is.

So, writing letters about a case of what you have agreed is clear discrimination is the same as lying? I'd say you have committed a logical fallacy. You do remember those from English rhetoric class, don't you? Maybe you were absent that day. And discrimination is never trivial. If you really think it is, I dare you to say that to a black person in any town USA.

We should save our time and energy for the big things that come up. Like AES where I requested another poster to make other groups (the U.S military in that case) aware of the possibility of racially motivated attacks.

Funny, I have read many of your post regarding the AES and as I recall, you, along with the other Korean apologists on this site, dismissed them as a fringe group that posed no real danger. Could you post the link to where you asked a poster to make the US military aware of possible racially motivated attacks?

Now if you feel this is an important issue, then fire away as many letters as you please. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just as it is my opinion that that we should choose our fights more carefully and I am entitled to it. Last time I checked we were allowed to voice our opinions on Dave's within the TOS.

Yes, we are able to voice our opinions, but from the post I have read, when you say that "we should choose our fights more carefully" it amounts to the same thing as "Korea can do what ever it wants and we just have to accept it." I could be wrong, but then, as you said, I am entitled to my opinion, am I not?

Funny how some people here complain about Korea attempting to stifle unpopular opinions (like Dokdo is Japan's) when the same sort of thing goes on here in certain threads.

What we complain about here on Dave's ESL does not affect the lifestyles nor the quality of life of Koreans. Discrimination in any form affects the lifestyle and quality of life of every foreigner in Korea. Big dif mr. myth.

Are you seriously comparing your life here with what blacks faced in the Rosa Parks era?

And where did I say writing letters about discrimination is the same as lying? What are you talking about?

And here's the link you asked for

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=171732&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=21

Yes, you are entitled to your opinon, wrong though it is... it's not if it's ever stopped you before.

Who was discussing lifestyle and quality of life?

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:02 am Post subject:

Quote:

Now, if back home, your state legislature or house of parliament or what have you had a sign which said "Due to risk of exposure to tuberculosis, we are banning tours for Korean citizens and children under 18." Do you think these guys would say "Well, that's your government's decision, a lot worse has happened in the past both in Korea and America?" Yeah, of course not. And besides, our countries wouldn't do such a thing, period.

Except that isn't an apples and oranges comparison. You're example uses a single country (Korea).

The Ks are banning ALL foreigners.

And yes, if the White House decided not to allow non-Americans to take tours post 9-11 (for the duration of the immediate crisis), then fine.

Quote:

And these guys were like: "Good, peeing in public in Korea is extremely rude, and you have the right to beat someone up if he's peeing against your apartment building, etc." Yeah, because we've never seen a drunk ajosshi taking a leak in public.

And if it had been an NET beating the ajosshi, would we have had the same reactions?

Probably not, the bashers would have defended the NET and the apologistas would have bashed the NET.

Quote:

These guys were all like: "well, what does she expect, she went home with him, it happens back home, blah-blah-blah."

This apologista did NOT take that stance.

ashland

Joined: 05 Dec 2008

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Foreigners Banned from Blue House Tours

Geckoman wrote:

South Korea's presidental house, known as "Blue House" in English and "Cheong Wa Dae" in Korean, has banned all foreigners from going on tours of the house under the reasoning that foreigers will spread swine flu, even though the arguement has no basis as Koreans are just as much a threat of spreading swine flu as foreigners are.

Another great example of the narrow-minded xenophobia so common in Korea.
See this Korea Herald article about it:

Cheong Wa Dae Keeps Doors Shut to Foreigners
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/12/09/200912090008.asp

I encourage everyone to e-mail the Blue House's tour reservation office to protest this outrageous and xenophobic policy at [email protected].

I also encourage everyone to call the 24-hour Korea tourist hotline, which is provided in English, among other languages, at 1330, and complain there.

And to think that Korea is desperately trying to improve itself as a tourist destination when it is constantly neglected as a tourist destination over other Asian locations. Korea really wants to be a tourist hub yet does stuff like this.

Cool

not as common as posters on daves esl..

winterwawa

Joined: 06 May 2007

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:53 am Post subject:

Sooke wrote:

@winterwawa,

Don't waste your time. These guys will defend anything as long as its happening to an E2 (or F2 for that matter.)

A couple of months back a poster was relaying the story of his friend-an E2 single woman who went home with a Korean guy she had met in a bar. If I recall, she was promptly assaulted and punched in the face when she didn't consent to sex. These guys were all like: "well, what does she expect, she went home with him, it happens back home, blah-blah-blah."

A little while after that, another poster was telling his story about when he was really drunk and decided to relieve himself by peeing next to a building. A Korean guy then came out and proceeded to kick the snot out of him. And these guys were like: "Good, peeing in public in Korea is extremely rude, and you have the right to beat someone up if he's peeing against your apartment building, etc." Yeah, because we've never seen a drunk ajosshi taking a leak in public.

Now, if back home, your state legislature or house of parliament or what have you had a sign which said "Due to risk of exposure to tuberculosis, we are banning tours for Korean citizens and children under 18." Do you think these guys would say "Well, that's your government's decision, a lot worse has happened in the past both in Korea and America?" Yeah, of course not. And besides, our countries wouldn't do such a thing, period.

I appreciate you fighting the good fight, but your time would be better spent talking to a brick wall. These guys won't change their tune, at least not until they're back in the big ol' mean, racist, imperialist, evil USA.

You're right. They are brick walls. Thanks for the support, though.

Rails, Myth and the rest of you Korea apologists, I give up. You're right! AES is just a fringe group that poses no danger, discrimination is okay and racism is back in fashion! Have a good time in the land of the morning clap.

winterwawa

Joined: 06 May 2007

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:21 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

winterwawa wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Are you seriously comparing your life here with what blacks faced in the Rosa Parks era?

No I am comparing discrimination with discrimination. Why do you and rails always try to twist what I say into meaning something I didn't say?

And where did I say writing letters about discrimination is the same as lying? What are you talking about?

You said "ever hear of the boy that cried "Wolf"" The moral of the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is that Even when liers tell the truth, they won't be believed. Maybe you used the wrong fable, at any rate, you brought up the lier thing. Maybe you should read what you write before you hit the submit button.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinon, wrong though it is... it's not if it's ever stopped you before.

Thanks, but I didn't think I needed your permission to have my own opinions.

Who was discussing lifestyle and quality of life?

You can't see the connection? Sad, really sad.

And here's the link you asked for

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=171732&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=21

That wasn't a tread about the AES, it was a thread about the "Death Threat Leveled at Assoc. of English Teachers in Korea." And while the newspaper and other posters made comments about AES, your post said, and I quote,

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

One death threat from one nutjob does not terrorism make.

It's a criminal act or should be...but it's not terrorism.

And I don't know why you think this would be a story.

Some guy threatened another guy/group of people over the Internet? Happens every day.

Then you said

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

If I issued a single death threat to you and you took the case to court, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't be accused of terrorism.

If on the other hand I made repeated death threats or followed that up by throwing Molotov cocktails at your house...then maybe.

I suppose it's possible that a death threat may be considered a terrorist act in some jurisdictions, but would that be the only factor? I'd be interested in reading about a case where this happened if you have one in mind.

It wasn't until someone accused you of dismissing the incident that you finally said,

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Unfortunately the government may not even be aware of such a story. Perhaps those of us who can speak or write fluent Korean or who are married to a Korean, can send a few letters off and see what happens.

Why not bring it up with the camp commander (the guy you play cards with)? Suggest that some of his off-duty soldiers might get mistaken for English teachers and attacked. He should be able to pull a string or two or his higher-ups should.

So, basically it wasn't until you were cornered into saying something that would make you sound intelligent that you made your brilliant suggestion.

And we should really take you seriously after all the posts you have made dismissing AES as a powerless fringe group whose bark is worse than their bite. Please... at least be consistent in your hypocrisies.

shamham

Joined: 29 Jul 2009

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

cdninkorea wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

jmuns wrote:

how many of you had a trip planned there for this weekend? i mean who really cares. when we get banned from something important then i'll care.

I go there every weekend. Now I'm heartbroken.

Guess I'll have to set fire to myself on the front lawn or something.

My God man, can't you think in principle?

What? I'm standing up for foreigners's rights. Why not come along with me? We can demonstrate our principles while wreathed with flame and singing "We Shall Overcome."

After all we can't turn a blind eye to this discrimination. Outrageous. Never mind about late pay, not being paid, being attacked in the streets and such like nonsense. THIS is truly important.

Re: bolded emphasis above mine - TUM, your examples and this Blue House fiasco are related and come from the same source - the same problem. I'm sorry if you can't see that. One may be more objectionable than the other, but their basis is no different. And come on - no one is really objecting to your 'opposing view.' They're objecting to your ridicule and dismissive condescension. You do seem to enjoy this M.O. - creating this false proposition that by doing one you're demeaning the other. Can I write an outraged letter about the Blue House AND protest street attacks? Why - I think I can!

Whome? wrote:

What if the White House, or the British/Canadian parliament suddenly said all non-white people can't come in? No tours for the 'colored' peoples. They carry disease.

Excellent point of contrast. Indeed - can you imagine? It would a shot heard round the world. A PR tsunami.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You're right! AES is just a fringe group that poses no danger,

So who has more power and influence winterwawa, the AES or Hagwons?

BUt you want us to think that the AES pulls all the strings in the government.

Quote:

discrimination is okay and racism is back in fashion!

Discrimination and racism are part of the bag that comes with life, like taxes, random violence, and disease.

You fight battles against those monsters, you work to make things better, but you have to understand that you can never completely destroy them, and in the swamp of life you can't stop to chase a racist mosquito everytime you get stung, you have to wait for the racist alligator. Otherwise you won't have time to turn your swamp into a nice pond.

That's my underlying theme- I'm not saying these things are not wrong, but the answer in life is not to constantly get enraged over every slight. As someone who dealt with this same Korean nonsense back home, and went through the same 'hater' phase only to come out of it after a one-year breath of fresh air, I'm trying to give advice that certain things just aren't worth getting that worked up over.

Besides, plenty of NETs in htis country are having a wonderful time. Maybe this means that the problem is not with Korea, but with the individuals who struggle to adapt to it.

Quote:

No I am comparing discrimination with discrimination. Why do you and rails always try to twist what I say into meaning something I didn't say?

The War of the Roses was analogous to World War II- there were two sides, and war, and people died.

When you want to compare things, just because they fall under the same broad category, it does not make them a good comparison.

Quote:

You said "ever hear of the boy that cried "Wolf"" The moral of the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is that Even when liers tell the truth, they won't be believed.

Not only liars, but emotional, hysterical people. When NETs say that the HIV thing is like Jim Crow, that is calling Wolf.

Perhaps others would be more sympathetic if instead of getting hysterical and adopting the tone of "Korea is evil and out to get us", the posters were to write things in a more sober and moderated tone, they might get more support.

Quote:

What if the White House, or the British/Canadian parliament suddenly said all non-white people can't come in? No tours for the 'colored' peoples. They carry disease.

Quote:

Excellent point of contrast. Indeed - can you imagine? It would a shot heard round the world. A PR tsunami

Bad point of contrast, the Blue House situation covers ALL foreigners of ALL colors.

Now if the White House were to ban non-US citizens from entering following a terrorist attack, yes, some people would disagree. And many other people would agree.

Quote:

is that Even when liers tell the truth, they won't be believed.

winterwawa, you seem to enjoy accusing people of lying a lot. At best you got me on not writing things clearly enough. At worst, the problem was with the reader (you) not the writer.

I for one do not enjoy being accused of lying and for you to just idly do so.

You accused me of fabricating my involvement with this story. Well, I WAS involved. I have no reason to lie, I am not claiming great involvement, in fact I am allowing for the fact that my involvement and advice was ignored, it was 5 minutes of work. BUT that is more involvement than you had.

The one thing I have maintained that I know for a fact was that the Blue House protocol officers DID try to be sensitive to this issue, and were advised NOT to discriminate against foreigners. They may have had various reasons for ignoring this advice, such as security (not health security, military) or just it was a bad decision brought on by xenophobia/group-think. But they did try to be sensitive to the matter. Non-Koreans were consulted.

Accusing someone of being a liar in a public forum is not an idle thing to do winterwawa. It is not a term to throw wildly around, dare I say, calling Wolf.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject:

winterwawa wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

[q

And here's the link you asked for

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=171732&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=21

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Then you said

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

It wasn't until someone accused you of dismissing the incident that you finally said,

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Nonsense. I said it wasn't terrorism. That does not equate to dismissing it. I clearly said it was a criminal act. Gotta love how you accuse me of twisting your words and then you do the same thing to me.

Sooke

Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Location: korea

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Now if the White House were to ban non-US citizens from entering following a terrorist attack, yes, some people would disagree. And many other people would agree.

A) The swine flu is not the same as a terrorist attack.
B) I imagine after a terrorist attack, the White House would be off-limits to all visitors-US citizens AND foreigners. You think the Pentagon or White House would have allowed citizens to tour on Sept 12th 2001?

If the Blue House had said 'No tours for anybody because of swine flu' then nobody would be bothered. Or if they said 'No tours for those who have entered the country within X amount of time (flu incubation period)' then nobody would be bothered.

What they did in fact was succumb to all the nationalist BS which reported the swine flu as a foreigner's disease. (Obviously it started outside of Korea, but... that doesn't mean a Korean couldn't bring it in.) I remember at the start of the hysteria that any foreigners showing symptoms would be quarantined at a secure location, while Koreans showing the same symptoms where allowed to 'self-quarantine' at their homes. Pretty effective that. By the time they realized that maybe Koreans should be quarantined at secure locations as well it was too late and the flu had spread to persons with no foreign contact. The same pigheadedness behind this Blue House rule allowed the disease to spread. And that's why its a problem.

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