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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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 Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| Intolerance is a two-way street. Most Muslim countries are basically intolerant of Christians or Hindus - officially and/or unofficially... |
No, intolerance is not a two-way street. It doesn't matter at all how intolerant of other faiths Muslim countries are when it comes to the Swiss following the Swiss constitution.
By the way, which Muslim countries do you think are officially and/or unofficially intolerant of Christians or Hindus? I just want to get a count to determine if they constitute a majority of Muslim countries. Here is a list for you of countries with a majority Muslim population. |
The only predominately Islamic countries which I have heard are tolerant of minority religions are Kazahkstan, Mali, and Syria. There might be one or two more, but I can't think of one. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ytuque wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| Intolerance is a two-way street. Most Muslim countries are basically intolerant of Christians or Hindus - officially and/or unofficially... |
No, intolerance is not a two-way street. It doesn't matter at all how intolerant of other faiths Muslim countries are when it comes to the Swiss following the Swiss constitution.
By the way, which Muslim countries do you think are officially and/or unofficially intolerant of Christians or Hindus? I just want to get a count to determine if they constitute a majority of Muslim countries. Here is a list for you of countries with a majority Muslim population. |
The only predominately Islamic countries which I have heard are tolerant of minority religions are Kazahkstan, Mali, and Syria. There might be one or two more, but I can't think of one. |
You can add Jordan and Senegal to the list. So, that's five countries. There could be others. It's hard to know unless one makes a study and looks at all the names of the countries with a majority of people being Muslim with non-Muslim minorities. I wouldn't quite put Turkey on the list, but it's getting there. The government is trying to promote its Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek Christian minorities. Egypt still has a long, long way to go, though some years ago the government removed some old ban that came from the Ottoman Empire regarding church construction. That was removed in the late 90s. Bahais don't have to put Muslim on their ID cards. Obviously, there is progress, but there needs to be much more progress. Some people ignore the progress. It's easy to do so when the violence in Iraq, for example, encouraged attacks on Christians that didn't occur under Saddam Hussein's rule. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| You can add Indonesia and Malasyia to the list also. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Juan Cole on the status of Christians in Syria...
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Here is a Western Christian description of the situation of Christians in Syria:
' In Syria, as in all other Arab countries of the Middle East except Saudi Arabia, freedom of religion is guaranteed in law . . . We should like to point out too that in Syria and in several other countries of the region, Christian churches benefit from free water and electricity supplies, are exempt from several types of tax and can seek building permission for new churches (in Syria, land for these buildings are granted by the State) or repair existing ones.
It should be noted too that there are Christian members of Parliament and of government in Syria and other countries, sometimes in a fixed number (as in Lebanon and Jordan.)
Finally, we note that a new personal statute was promulgated on 18 June 2006 for the various Christian Churches found in Syria, which purposely and verbatim repeats most of the rules of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches promulgated by Pope John Paul II. '
That is, in Muslim-majority Syria, the government actually grants land to Christians for the building of churches, along with free water and electricity. Christians have their own personal status legal code, straight from the Vatican. (It is because Christians have their own law in the Middle East, backed by the state, that Muslims in the West are puzzled as to why they cannot practice their personal status code.) Christians have freedom of religion, though there are sensitivities about attempts to convert others (as there are everywhere in the Middle East, including Israel). And Christians are represented in the legislature. With Switzerland's 5 percent Muslim population, how many Muslim members of parliament does it have?
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Mind you, I'd imagine that there are other restrictions on what Christians can do in Syria, especially related to what Cole calls "sensitivities about attempts to convert others", which wouldn't exist for Muslims in a western democracy. But I really don't know.
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Juan Cole on the status of Christians in Syria...
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Here is a Western Christian description of the situation of Christians in Syria:
' In Syria, as in all other Arab countries of the Middle East except Saudi Arabia, freedom of religion is guaranteed in law . . . We should like to point out too that in Syria and in several other countries of the region, Christian churches benefit from free water and electricity supplies, are exempt from several types of tax and can seek building permission for new churches (in Syria, land for these buildings are granted by the State) or repair existing ones.
It should be noted too that there are Christian members of Parliament and of government in Syria and other countries, sometimes in a fixed number (as in Lebanon and Jordan.)
Finally, we note that a new personal statute was promulgated on 18 June 2006 for the various Christian Churches found in Syria, which purposely and verbatim repeats most of the rules of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches promulgated by Pope John Paul II. '
That is, in Muslim-majority Syria, the government actually grants land to Christians for the building of churches, along with free water and electricity. Christians have their own personal status legal code, straight from the Vatican. (It is because Christians have their own law in the Middle East, backed by the state, that Muslims in the West are puzzled as to why they cannot practice their personal status code.) Christians have freedom of religion, though there are sensitivities about attempts to convert others (as there are everywhere in the Middle East, including Israel). And Christians are represented in the legislature. With Switzerland's 5 percent Muslim population, how many Muslim members of parliament does it have?
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Mind you, I'd imagine that there are other restrictions on what Christians can do in Syria, especially related to what Cole calls "sensitivities about attempts to convert others", which wouldn't exist for Muslims in a western democracy. But I really don't know.
link |
Well, in Lebanon, a Muslim could become a Christian. I think you could technically do so, but I am not sure about that. I know for sure you can do that in Lebanon. In Lebanon, you actually can't be labeled as an atheist. Also, if a mixed couple gets married their child generally has to be
be part of some kind of religious group. In Syria, you cannot convert to any religion other than Islam, but you could freely say you are not religion, secular, and that's where it ends. It's one thing to be secular, not really much of a believer and another to convert to another faith. That's what I understand about Syria. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| You can add Indonesia and Malasyia to the list also. |
Wrong again! |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| ytuque wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| You can add Indonesia and Malasyia to the list also. |
Wrong again! |
Actually, I am still correct. I'll go with the evidence of my own eyes and experience in Malaysia. Churches, temples, and mosques all are there and I've seen people practicing their religions there. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| ytuque wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| You can add Indonesia and Malasyia to the list also. |
Wrong again! |
Actually, I am still correct. I'll go with the evidence of my own eyes and experience in Malaysia. Churches, temples, and mosques all are there and I've seen people practicing their religions there. |
Use your eyes to read the Malaysian constitution. Religions other than Islam are inferior in the constitution. There is even a list of words which Christian literature cannot used explicitly stated in the constitution. As with most Islamic countries, the trend is not in the right direction. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Here is the Constitution of Malaysia.
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Article number 3:
(1) Islam is the religion of the Federation; but other religions may be practised in peace and harmony in any part of the Federation. |
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Article number 8:
(1) All persons are equal before the law and entitled to the equal protection of the law.
(2) Except as expressly authorized by this Constitution, there shall be no discrimination against citizens on the ground only of religion, race, descent or place of birth in any law relating to the acquisition, holding or disposition of property or the establishing or carrying on of any trade,
business, profession, vocation or employment. |
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Article number 12:
(1)Without prejudice to the generality of Article 8, there shall be no discrimination against any citizen on the grounds only of religion, race, descent or place of birth -
(a) in the administration of any educational institution maintained by a public authority, and, in particular, the admission of pupils or students or the payment of fees; or
(b) in providing out of the funds of a public authority financial aid for the maintenance or education of pupils or students in any educational institution (whether or not maintained by a public authority and whether within or outside the Federation).
(2) Every religious group has the right to establish and maintain institutions for the education of children in its own religion, and there shall be no discrimination on the ground only of religion in any law relating to such institutions or in the administration of any such law; but it shall be lawful for the Federation or a State to establish or maintain or assist in establishing or maintaining Islamic institutions or provide or assist in providing instruction in the religion of Islam and incur such expenditure as may be necessary for the purpose.
(3) No person shall be required to receive instruction in or take part in any ceremony or act of worship of a religion other than his own.
(4) For the purposes of Clause (3) the religion of a person under the age of eighteen years shall be decided by his parent or guardian. |
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Article number 47:
Every citizen resident in the Federation is qualified to be a member -
(a) of the Senate, if he is not less than thirty years old;
(b) of the House of Representatives, if he is not less than twenty-one years old, unless he is disqualified for being a member by this Constitution or by law made in pursuance of Article 48. |
Wow. Looks like Islam is considered the state religion but everyone is permitted to practice their religion and even to choose their religion, providing they are not a minor, in which case their parent or guardian will choose said religion.
Come to think of it, doesn't the United Kingdom have a state religion? So, I guess you can say that in the UK "Islam is an inferior religion."
Now let me address your assertion that certain words cannot be used by certain people. The law as I understand it is that translations of Bibles, for example, may not translate God as Allah; however, that law is being challenged. And the constitution does not include such a list. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: |
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State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Lubuan, federal law
may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons
professing the religion of Islam. |
How about that? Muslims can convert others but it is against the law to attempt to convert a muslim. All you need is a muslim to claim that you tried to convert him/her, and you are getting arrested. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: |
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There are numerous government set asides for Malays, but who is a Malay?
According to the constitution:
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| "Malay" means a person who professes the religion of Islam, habitually speaks the Malay language, conforms to Malay custom and - |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Your last two posts, ytuque, do not address the points you made, said points disproven quite easily. Now how about getting onto the real issue? Swiss bigots agitated for a referendum to outlaw a practice they see as representative of a religion they don't want in their country. You see that as okay? Then you are no different than those bigots, are you not?
And, in case anyone's wondering, no, I don't think prohibition of proselytizing is the way to go. IMHO, each and every person should get to choose their religion, or even lack of religion, for themselves. I certainly don't think conversion to or from any religion is grounds for capital punishment! |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
Your last two posts, ytuque, do not address the points you made, said points disproven quite easily. Now how about getting onto the real issue? Swiss bigots agitated for a referendum to outlaw a practice they see as representative of a religion they don't want in their country. You see that as okay? Then you are no different than those bigots, are you not?
And, in case anyone's wondering, no, I don't think prohibition of proselytizing is the way to go. IMHO, each and every person should get to choose their religion, or even lack of religion, for themselves. I certainly don't think conversion to or from any religion is grounds for capital punishment! |
How can my last 2 points be disproven since they were taken from an English version of the Malaysian constitution? And you are confused because the Swiss banned the building of minarets not the practice of any religion.
I don't necessarily agree with the ban, but to put that on par with the religious intolerance inherent in Islam is ridiculous. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| You said the constitution contains a list of words prohibited. It does not. Try reading what I wrote and not pretending I wrote something I did not. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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There are both Catholic and Episcopal churches in Kuwait.
Also, let us not forget to include Israel among the countries with a state religion where those of other faiths are second-class citizens. |
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