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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| China blocks youtube? |
Yes, but this is a lack of initiative on my fault. I know Chinese who get around this w/o paying for VPN, and I used to be able to do this, but I just need someone to show me what I've either forgotten or what I've fallen behind on.
I began liking Dean when he took that inglorious DNC head job, now I really like him.
What has happened to me? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Howard Dean: Health Care Bill 'Bigger Bailout for the Insurance Industry Than AIG'
"This is a bigger bailout for the insurance industry than AIG," former Democratic National Committee chairman and medical doctor Howard Dean told "Good Morning America's" George Stephanopoulos today. "A very small number of people are going to get any insurance at all, until 2014, if the bill works.
"This is an insurance company's dream, this bill," Dean continued. "This is the Washington scramble, and I think it's ill-advised." |
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/howard-dean-health-care-bill-bigger-bailout-insurance/story?id=9349392
Forcing people to buy a defective product is not "reform". I don't know what it is. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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Howard Dean: Health Care Bill 'Bigger Bailout for the Insurance Industry Than AIG'
"This is a bigger bailout for the insurance industry than AIG," former Democratic National Committee chairman and medical doctor Howard Dean told "Good Morning America's" George Stephanopoulos today. "A very small number of people are going to get any insurance at all, until 2014, if the bill works.
"This is an insurance company's dream, this bill," Dean continued. "This is the Washington scramble, and I think it's ill-advised." |
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/howard-dean-health-care-bill-bigger-bailout-insurance/story?id=9349392
Forcing people to buy a defective product is not "reform". I don't know what it is. |
But, of course, we all know what it is. It is the opposite of liberty. It is the opposite of what happens in a free society. It is evil incarnate. It is the act of evil, fascist, desperate men. It is what happens with evil, fascist, desperate governments.
Forcing people to buy defective products that they would choose not to buy in a free market, forcing people to do things they would not choose to do in a free society, these are the hallmarks of Socialism.
Socialism is always bad for the people. It always benefits a select, politically powerful group. Socialists, like Dean and Obama, just fight over whose favorite special interests should get the booty. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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I began liking Dean when he took that inglorious DNC head job, now I really like him.
What has happened to me? |
Your sense of good taste is at long last reasserting itself? 
Dean's terrific. He's a sharp cookie. He got a bum wrap by the media after that 'scream'.
I think he's wrong on this kill the bill thing, but I love it that he's fighting. Good for him. We need more articulate spokesmen like him--and he should have been in the cabinet.
I don't think he's egotistical enough to permanently split the coalition--that would be a disaster. He's not going to wreck what he worked so hard to build. He's going to get some concession for the left, if not on health care then on some other issue--DADT maybe?
Here he is on Chris Mathews (yeah, I know, ICK!) with Landrieu. It's an interesting exchange:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697#34452771 |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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I would have voted for Dean if I had a chance to. Always liked him. Sure as hell is better than Kerry.
And yes, Chris Matthews is AWFUL. I don't know how anyone can sit through his show. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
Howard Dean: Health Care Bill 'Bigger Bailout for the Insurance Industry Than AIG'
"This is a bigger bailout for the insurance industry than AIG," former Democratic National Committee chairman and medical doctor Howard Dean told "Good Morning America's" George Stephanopoulos today. "A very small number of people are going to get any insurance at all, until 2014, if the bill works.
"This is an insurance company's dream, this bill," Dean continued. "This is the Washington scramble, and I think it's ill-advised." |
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/howard-dean-health-care-bill-bigger-bailout-insurance/story?id=9349392
Forcing people to buy a defective product is not "reform". I don't know what it is. |
Exactly, which is why I really dislike this idea that the bill as is should be passed, or even passed with moderate amendment. This is not a reform bill. It's not even incremental reform. It's movement away from reform.
This bill has failed, and it is beyond redemption. Kill it, loudly make it clear who the people were who ensured no proper bill was possible, and let the public vote accordingly. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Forcing people to buy a defective product is not "reform". |
It could very well increase the number of people disgruntled enough to demand further reform. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Forcing people to buy a defective product is not "reform". |
It could very well increase the number of people disgruntled enough to demand further reform. |
Or it could turn out like the prescription drug bill that the GOP passed during the Bush administration. Awful for the greater good, but helps out a small segment of people and is a huge boost for the pharma industry. Just switch pharma with health insurance, and voila! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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"Dean, who outspokenly championed the public option and also supported the Medicare buy-in, said Thursday on MSNBC's Morning Joe that he won't "vigorously" support Obama's re-election in 2012.
"I'm going to support President Obama when he runs for re-election," Dean, also a former DNC Chair, said. "Not vigorously. I'm going to vote for him."
Although Dean hasn't withdrawn his support for Obama, he is a leading voice in the progressive community, and his dialed-down support of the Obama presidency as a result of this health care bill is likely to represent and ultimately fuel the sentiments among the president's core constituency."
http://www.alternet.org/politics/144633/howard_dean%3A_i_won%E2%80%99t_%22vigorously%22_support_obama%27s_re-election
Now THAT was a stupid thing to say. Last spring we had the entertainment of circular firing squads on the right. They should stay where they belong. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Now THAT was a stupid thing to say. Last spring we had the entertainment of circular firing squads on the right. They should stay where they belong. |
You're only going to see more of this. Those circular firing squads on the Right existed because conservatives felt they were being taken for granted by the Republican Party. Liberals are just going to feel more and more taken for granted by the Democrats, and the results are going to be the same. Our two major parties can only take their bases for granted while courting moderates and independents for so long before said bases start to get angry. And frankly, I think it's a good thing. Angry conservatives splitting off of the Republican party and angry liberals divorcing themselves from the Democrats could result in more party diversity, which is exactly what America needs. Admittedly, I think it's unlikely, but if it's going to happen, it will happen because the parties tear themselves apart. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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I began liking Dean when he took that inglorious DNC head job, now I really like him.
What has happened to me? |
Your sense of good taste is at long last reasserting itself?
Dean's terrific. He's a sharp cookie. He got a bum wrap by the media after that 'scream'. |
I've always said that the media circus surrounding his 'scream' was ridiculous, utterly high school. At the time, I wasn't terribly upset with the result that it tanked his campaign, but even I felt sympathy for Dean.
Anyway, I'm with Ya-Ta. The bill is less than perfect, but it'll save the average family $9,000/year on health-care costs. And passing one bill does not hurt passing another bill after 2010.
But yes, the insurance mandate is kind of ridiculous. Not to mention probably unconstitutional (I'm using this in the sense of how I think the Constitution should be read, not in the sense of how the Supreme Court will treat it).
I also support the Rockefeller Amendment which would strengthen the new Independent Medicare Advisory Board (IMAB).
| Concord Coalition wrote: |
The amendment being proposed by Senator Rockefeller would fix many of these restrictions and lift the board back to a position where it would be poised to encourage rapid innovation in Medicare, suggest similar innovations in the private sector, and serve as a crucial backstop against politically motivated attempts to increase reimbursement levels above that which is fiscally responsible.
The Board would be charged with making proposals annually, meaning even when cost-control targets were met, it could still propose delivery system changes covering the full range of Medicare providers. The commission would also be able to promote similar changes in the private health insurance plans within the newly created insurance exchanges. This additional power might lead to health care cost control throughout the entire economy, not just the federal sector. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| But yes, the insurance mandate is kind of ridiculous. |
Markos at Daily Kos has an interesting proposal (which I think comes from someone at FireDogLake) on the mandate.
Since a major objection of the disgruntled progressives is that the mandate hands over 30 million new customers to the insurance company in 2014, why not strip it out of the bill now? Put it back on the table in a couple of years as an enticement in a deal for some kind of public option.
It's worth a serious look.
| Quote: |
| Angry conservatives splitting off of the Republican party and angry liberals divorcing themselves from the Democrats could result in more party diversity, which is exactly what America needs. |
If the GOP wants to split itself into a dozen parties, more power to them. However, if the Dems follow them off the cliff, all that will happen will be presidents elected in the House of Representatives. Chaos and treachery*. The Electoral College forces the 2-party system to exist. Two parties or fifty parties, the same arguments will occur. In one system, the arguments happen within the 2 large parties; in the other, the arguments happen between a collection of smaller parties. Same-same.
*Treachery: Take a look at how John Quincy (Corrupt Bargain) Adams and the immortal Rutherford B. Hayes (Sell the former slaves down the river) were elected. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like the healthcare bill will get passed.
No public option, nothing that will reduce costs. PUBLIC OPTIONS helps the middle class folks, people.
What's going to get passed is Middle Class will ultimately be paying for low income to no income to also have healthcare - all at the overinflated prices. Essentially.
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I had HIGH hopes for any healthcare plan...as any is better than the previous. BUT, this incarnation IS the same as the old, except that everyone is covered and we'll ALL pay more now. Not reform at all. The form we have royally sucks, by the way.
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Not to turn this thread into an anti-Ron Paul thread, as his name often evokes that here - actually any name does here on daves. BUT, one of the things that appealed to me about Ron Paul is when he said he'd tear down our current healthcare system altogether...and EVERYONE would pay 'at costs' WITHOUT all of the current overcharging and overpricing and inflated insurance system and on and on.
From that, perhaps we'd tweak it or morph it into something efficient. But the current system has to go, and it isn't going to happen with a large Obama Band-Aid to the current system.
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Actually HOWARD DEAN...as BB mentioned his name. Yeah, I always really liked that guy. Too bad the 'dean scream' ruined him. When he began speaking out about this healthcare, finally a Democratic voice speaking the REAL deal....that said a lot to me.
He's right though...Obama could have tried to get something good for the American people. Instead, in the end, I think Obama was just more interested in getting ANY healthcare thing to pass, just to pass, and say yeah, I did this. But it's fairly half-assed. |
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