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zipper
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Location: Ruben Carter was falsely accused
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 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| nourozi wrote: |
I think it is quite obvious that they are not paying anyone less based on their sking color. The fact is, you can pay indians half of what we earn and they will still be making good money relative to us. They can go back home having saved up a considerable amount of money. Think about it. It's not racism, it's just business.
They want to cut down the costs of English education and they have found a "solution". I personally don't think it's a good way to cut the costs of English education but that's not the point of this post.
Indians will be happy to come for less and Koreans will be happy to save money. I think some of you are scared because others are willing to accept a lower pay grade to "do the same job". |
Do you think that any self respecting and dignified Indian teacher would accept this view of economics? I would expect at the very least that they would want to be treated equally on a pay scale regardless of where they come from. There are upper class Indians that experience a cost of living comparable to that of people in the West and in South Korea. I don�t think that the South African economy is as robust as the US or the UK. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| zipper wrote: |
| nourozi wrote: |
I think it is quite obvious that they are not paying anyone less based on their sking color. The fact is, you can pay indians half of what we earn and they will still be making good money relative to us. They can go back home having saved up a considerable amount of money. Think about it. It's not racism, it's just business.
They want to cut down the costs of English education and they have found a "solution". I personally don't think it's a good way to cut the costs of English education but that's not the point of this post.
Indians will be happy to come for less and Koreans will be happy to save money. I think some of you are scared because others are willing to accept a lower pay grade to "do the same job". |
Do you think that any self respecting and dignified Indian teacher would accept this view of economics? I would expect at the very least that they would want to be treated equally on a pay scale regardless of where they come from. There are upper class Indians that experience a cost of living comparable to that of people in the West and in South Korea. I don�t think that the South African economy is as robust as the US or the UK. |
I agree with this. Remember people, they aren't hiring young guys fresh out of university.
They want qualified, certified teachers. |
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rebmetpes
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Location: Geoje-Si
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
It's completely unfair to pay someone less based on their skin color.
We don't pay South Africans less than Canadians at our school. We don't pay Americans more than Brits. Everyone follows the same pay scale.
There should be no discrimination in pay. To pay someone less because of their skin color is 100% pure racism. |
+1 |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
| To pay someone less because of their skin color is 100% pure racism. |
Koreans want English as it is spoken in the west, not Bengal.
They also want some western culture to rub off onto their kids in the process.
Why? To prepare them for a possible future in the west.
Koreans don't grow up with a burning ambition to get a visa to live in India. No, they all want to either take vacations, work in, or possibly live in, the west. Namely, the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc.
So why would they pay to learn Indi-glish? Sure, an Indian teacher can give a good grounding in basics, and some of them even speak with a very neutral accent. In many cases I'm sure they'd make better teachers than westerners. But the fact is, India makes its own form of spoken english that does not relate 100% to that spoken in the west. The market rules I'm afraid. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
We don't pay South Africans less than Canadians at our school. We don't pay Americans more than Brits. Everyone follows the same pay scale. |
Thats obviously only at your particular school.
I've seen blondes paid more than brunettes, I've seen americans paid more than new zealanders... in the hogwon system. And of course we know there is a preference for americans over all other nationalities when it comes to hiring.
It may not be right, but its what the market dictates. besides, I don't think its purely down to racism. Its culture-ism. The south african culture is less desired and less appealing than the american one. (In the minds of most). They're paying for cultural influence as much as anything else. |
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skim234
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
It's completely unfair to pay someone less based on their skin color.
We don't pay South Africans less than Canadians at our school. We don't pay Americans more than Brits. Everyone follows the same pay scale.
There should be no discrimination in pay. To pay someone less because of their skin color is 100% pure racism. |
Being that I'm from America, I have to disagree. The unwritten rules about immigrant workers coming to a very non-diverse country is that the immigrant worker is willing to work for less money than your standard native worker. This isn't as much racism, as it is buying the cheapest possible labor.
What would be more "racism" would be if these Indians weren't hired to begin with. At least the lower-paid Indians have the freedom to choose whether they want to work at a hagwon for 1.5 mill or not. I'm pretty sure that I would be able to work at any hagwon for 1.5 mill (as a Korean-American) over a Westerner who wants 2.3 mill. That has nothing to do with racism and more to do with the bottom line.
Of course, Koreans toe the line of racism, but in this case, it's common sense to hire the cheapest worker. Historically and statisically speaking, cheap workers=immigrants. In Korea, you see hot girls who work at Burger King who probably make more money than a hispanic working illegally at a Burger King in Texas. That hispanic will be hired of a white guy because the hispanic is ok with making below minimum wage. Is that racist hiring? |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| I think it would be interesting to hear Korean children speaking English with an Indian accent! |
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I-am-me
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Hermit Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: |
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When will the start hiring the Na-vi?  |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| skim234 wrote: |
| bassexpander wrote: |
It's completely unfair to pay someone less based on their skin color.
We don't pay South Africans less than Canadians at our school. We don't pay Americans more than Brits. Everyone follows the same pay scale.
There should be no discrimination in pay. To pay someone less because of their skin color is 100% pure racism. |
Being that I'm from America, I have to disagree. The unwritten rules about immigrant workers coming to a very non-diverse country is that the immigrant worker is willing to work for less money than your standard native worker. This isn't as much racism, as it is buying the cheapest possible labor.
What would be more "racism" would be if these Indians weren't hired to begin with. At least the lower-paid Indians have the freedom to choose whether they want to work at a hagwon for 1.5 mill or not. I'm pretty sure that I would be able to work at any hagwon for 1.5 mill (as a Korean-American) over a Westerner who wants 2.3 mill. That has nothing to do with racism and more to do with the bottom line.
Of course, Koreans toe the line of racism, but in this case, it's common sense to hire the cheapest worker. Historically and statisically speaking, cheap workers=immigrants. In Korea, you see hot girls who work at Burger King who probably make more money than a hispanic working illegally at a Burger King in Texas. That hispanic will be hired of a white guy because the hispanic is ok with making below minimum wage. Is that racist hiring? |
The problem is that you are comparing legal immigrant workers to illegal immigrant workers. I don't think the comparison holds as much water as you seem to think. An illegal immigrant has no legal recourse since this would put him or her in danger of being deported. However, a legal immigrant has nothing to fear from the law and therefore could potentially sue for discrimination if he or she is being paid less due to his or her ethnicity.
On the other hand, it might make some sense to initially pay Indians less due to the fact that English is not their first language. However, if that is going to be the policy, then it should also be applied towards South Africans as English is not their first language either. Now, even if this is going to be the policy, there should be ways for the excellent and competent non-native English teachers to rapidly advance in pay. |
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greasypeanut
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Location: songtan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| I think it would be interesting to hear Korean children speaking English with an Indian accent! |
it would be just as interesting as a kiwi, aussie, british, or any english speaking country. im always shocked outta my mind when i hear a korean speaking with a <insert random english speaking country> accent then i find out they're a gyopo.
simple fact is english is english, and with my "honeymoon period" over i couldnt care less what they sound like as long as i can communicate with them. |
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skim234
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| skim234 wrote: |
| bassexpander wrote: |
It's completely unfair to pay someone less based on their skin color.
We don't pay South Africans less than Canadians at our school. We don't pay Americans more than Brits. Everyone follows the same pay scale.
There should be no discrimination in pay. To pay someone less because of their skin color is 100% pure racism. |
Being that I'm from America, I have to disagree. The unwritten rules about immigrant workers coming to a very non-diverse country is that the immigrant worker is willing to work for less money than your standard native worker. This isn't as much racism, as it is buying the cheapest possible labor.
What would be more "racism" would be if these Indians weren't hired to begin with. At least the lower-paid Indians have the freedom to choose whether they want to work at a hagwon for 1.5 mill or not. I'm pretty sure that I would be able to work at any hagwon for 1.5 mill (as a Korean-American) over a Westerner who wants 2.3 mill. That has nothing to do with racism and more to do with the bottom line.
Of course, Koreans toe the line of racism, but in this case, it's common sense to hire the cheapest worker. Historically and statisically speaking, cheap workers=immigrants. In Korea, you see hot girls who work at Burger King who probably make more money than a hispanic working illegally at a Burger King in Texas. That hispanic will be hired of a white guy because the hispanic is ok with making below minimum wage. Is that racist hiring? |
The problem is that you are comparing legal immigrant workers to illegal immigrant workers. I don't think the comparison holds as much water as you seem to think. An illegal immigrant has no legal recourse since this would put him or her in danger of being deported. However, a legal immigrant has nothing to fear from the law and therefore could potentially sue for discrimination if he or she is being paid less due to his or her ethnicity.
On the other hand, it might make some sense to initially pay Indians less due to the fact that English is not their first language. However, if that is going to be the policy, then it should also be applied towards South Africans as English is not their first language either. Now, even if this is going to be the policy, there should be ways for the excellent and competent non-native English teachers to rapidly advance in pay. |
You bring up a valid point, but I doubt Korea has organizations like the NAACP, LULAC, etc. to thwart this. It would be hard to prove racism entirely. If the hagwon director just stated, "The Indian's English isn't as good as the Westerner's, therefore I don't pay him as much," that would be 110% legal.
If I went to America and wanted to be paid more than higher-qualified people, my case for racism wouldn't hold much water.
To be frank, an Indian who learns English primarily from other Indians is going to have a strong accent. If the Indian went to an International school where he was taught by a native English speaker, then it's really no different and maybe better than some Korean-born worker who teaches English. |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| I have a feeling that there is going to be an Indian version of Dave's in the future. I can just see this happening. It will be quite interesting to hear their opinions about experiences here. Can't wait. |
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corinthian
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Indians will get paid the exact amount it takes to get them to come to Korea in the numbers desired by the Korean government. And not a rupee more. |
This. That is exactly how business works. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| I have a feeling that there is going to be an Indian version of Dave's in the future. I can just see this happening. It will be quite interesting to hear their opinions about experiences here. Can't wait. |
Derka derka |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Indian engineers earn 1.6 mil per month and share an apartment with 3 others. The Korean govt. has a program like EPIK for engineers. They think they are making real Bank too. In comparison German engineers got an expensive apartment, car, and highly paid. I knew both.
ESL in Korea could be going west for westerners. |
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