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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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 Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Another distinctively Vedic feature of "Avatar" (what to speak of the title) is the ritual of saying a prayer directly to the animal that one is about to kill. And - as in Vedic culture - the killing of animals, plants, and trees by the Navi is done only when really necessary.
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Actually, that practice is quite common among tribal peoples all over the world. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ytuque wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
Another distinctively Vedic feature of "Avatar" (what to speak of the title) is the ritual of saying a prayer directly to the animal that one is about to kill. And - as in Vedic culture - the killing of animals, plants, and trees by the Navi is done only when really necessary.
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Actually, that practice is quite common among tribal peoples all over the world. |
It's pretty clear tribal people -- rather than Vedic cultists -- were the inspiration for the natives in Avatar. Rteacher is just taking an opportunity to talk about his cult, because that's what he does. There was nothing in Avatar that was distinctively Vedic. At best, there were things that were incidentally Vedic. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| ytuque wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
Another distinctively Vedic feature of "Avatar" (what to speak of the title) is the ritual of saying a prayer directly to the animal that one is about to kill. And - as in Vedic culture - the killing of animals, plants, and trees by the Navi is done only when really necessary.
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Actually, that practice is quite common among tribal peoples all over the world. |
It's pretty clear tribal people -- rather than Vedic cultists -- were the inspiration for the natives in Avatar. Rteacher is just taking an opportunity to talk about his cult, because that's what he does. There was nothing in Avatar that was distinctively Vedic. At best, there were things that were incidentally Vedic. |
... like the Sanskrit word "Avatar" itself was just incidentally chosen. And there are so many mundane tribal people with blue skin pigment that resembles Krishna and most of the Vishnu Avatars.
I'm not asserting that the Vedic themes are the only - or even the main conscious - inspiration for the movie. I'm sure that Cameron got ideas from many other sources, but the one's that resonate the most profoundly are the one's in line with Vedic culture.
Here's his explanation for the title:
In a 2007 interview with Time magazine, Cameron addressed the meaning of the film's title, answering the question "What is an avatar, anyway?" Cameron stated, "It's an incarnation of one of the Hindu gods taking a flesh form." He said that "In this film what that means is that the human technology in the future is capable of injecting a human's intelligence into a remotely located body, a biological body". Cameron stated, "It's not an avatar in the sense of just existing as ones and zeroes in cyberspace. It's actually a physical body."
While superficially resembling Hindu avatars, however, Cameron's materialistic conception of what they really are is not fully realized in the transcendental sense. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| ... like the Sanskrit word "Avatar" itself was just incidentally chosen. |
Don't be dense, avatar is a commonly used English word. For God's sake, we have forum avatars here on Dave's. Do you think Dave's is drawing from Vedic Lore here? Don't be silly.
| Rteacher wrote: |
| And there are so many mundane tribal people with blue skin pigment that resembles Krishna and most of the Vishnu Avatars. |
They were made blue to be exotic while still being readily visible against the forest background. Again, I see no reason to think this has anything to do with Vedic Lore. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:17 am Post subject: |
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It's pretty dense to make an issue of the word "Avatar" when I just presented a quote from James Cameron defining it as "an incarnation of one of the Hindu gods, taking a flesh form..." (The quote is from the current Wikipedia article on the film.)
Despite his misconceptions about the nature of the original source of all incarnations,, the most significant "hidden messages" of Avatar are basically Vedic concepts about identity, karma, transmigration of souls, and the existence of more spiritually progressive cultures than what we've been conditioned to.
At its peak, the Vedic culture centered in ancient India extended its influence globally, which accounts for cultural similarities even in remote tribal regions. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| It's pretty dense to make an issue of the word "Avatar" when I just presented a quote from James Cameron defining it as "an incarnation of one of the Hindu gods, taking a flesh form..." (The quote is from the current Wikipedia article on the film.) |
It's also one of the dictionary definitions of the word in question.
| www.dictionary.com wrote: |
| Hindu Mythology. the descent of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape; the incarnation of a god. |
The guy took a word which is in popular use in our society to describe remote controlled versions of ourselves (usually in cyberspace, but not always) to title a movie about remote controlled versions of a few people, and mentioned it's history as read from the dictionary. Unless you think dictionary.com also has the secret message of supporting Vedic Mythology? Hell, you might.
| Rteacher wrote: |
| Despite his misconceptions about the nature of the original source of all incarnations,, the most significant "hidden messages" of Avatar are basically Vedic concepts about identity, karma, transmigration of souls, and the existence of more spiritually progressive cultures than what we've been conditioned to. |
Believe what you want to. I know you desparately want to believe this guy is somehow secretly pushing your cultist beliefs. He's not. If anything, he's pushing some generic, Native American style tribal shamanism. Very few religions are less central or important in the world than your cult.
| Rteacher wrote: |
| At its peak, the Vedic culture centered in ancient India extended its influence globally, which accounts for cultural similarities even in remote tribal regions. |
Again, believe what you want to, but there's a reason no one worthy of any academic respect believes this stuff, just like they don't believe in your magic "chanting science" or your conception of Vedic culture having had nuclear weapons. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| At its peak, the Vedic culture centered in ancient India extended its influence globally, which accounts for cultural similarities even in remote tribal regions. |
Again, believe what you want to, but there's a reason no one worthy of any academic respect believes this stuff... |
The same reason why all experts believe in global warming - if they don't, they're not experts anymore!
Last edited by Koveras on Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps "no one worthy of academic respect" in the eyes of a foolish materialist.
Actually, a significant number of scholars and scientists have a high regard for Vedic culture's sophisticated understanding of math, science, philosophy, architecture, and spirituality, and there definitely is proof that it spread far beyond the borders of India.
If you're interested in finding it, do your own research.
At least one eminent scientist of the modern era thinks that some ancient warriors may well have had sufficient mastery of subtle mantra science to
be able to detonate a type of nuclear weapon.
I told the story of Robert Oppenheimer, the chief scientist who developed the first nuclear bombs in the United States. When he saw the first bomb test he quoted a verse from Bhagavad Gita:
kalo �smi loka-kshaya-krit pravriddho
lokan samahartum iha pravrittah (BG 11.32)
Later when asked if this was the first nuclear explosion he replied:
�Yes, in modern times, ��
What Oppenheimer knew was that there were descriptions in the Vedic literature of warriors using nuclear weapons over 5000 years ago. Just as scientists now use high voltage electric sparks (and other methods) to start the chain reaction that results in a nuclear explosion, the most skilled ksatriyas (elite warriors) of the Vedic times could use special sound vibration (mantra) to either fuse or slip atoms and thereby achieve the same explosive effect.
Here is a passage from the Mahabharata describing a nuclear attack:
�a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame, as bright as the thousand suns, rose in all its splendor�a perpendicular explosion with its billowing smoke clouds�
�the cloud of smoke rising after its first explosion formed into expanding round circles like the opening of a giant mushroom�
It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas�the corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. The hair and nails fell out; pottery broke without apparent cause and the birds turned white. After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected�
�to escape from this fire the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment.
In the Bhagavatam there is a description of the misguided warrior Asvatthama being chased by the more powerful Arjuna and, out of desperation, launching a nuclear attack against his enemy. However, Asvatthama didn�t know how to properly control the weapon and the chain reaction cascaded out of control, threatening to destroy the entire world. Arjuna, on Krishna�s advice, released a nuclear weapon of his own, merged its explosion with that of Asvatthama�s weapon and then slowed the joint reactions and retracted both weapons, saving the day.
http://www.deltaflow.com/?p=367 |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Perhaps "no one worthy of academic respect" in the eyes of a foolish materialist.
Actually, a significant number of scholars and scientists have a high regard for Vedic culture's sophisticated understanding of math, science, philosophy, architecture, and spirituality, and there definitely is proof that it spread far beyond the borders of India.
If you're interested in finding it, do your own research.
At least one eminent scientist of the modern era thinks that some ancient warriors may well have had sufficient mastery of subtle mantra science to
be able to detonate a type of nuclear weapon.
I told the story of Robert Oppenheimer, the chief scientist who developed the first nuclear bombs in the United States. When he saw the first bomb test he quoted a verse from Bhagavad Gita:
kalo �smi loka-kshaya-krit pravriddho
lokan samahartum iha pravrittah (BG 11.32)
Later when asked if this was the first nuclear explosion he replied:
�Yes, in modern times, ��
What Oppenheimer knew was that there were descriptions in the Vedic literature of warriors using nuclear weapons over 5000 years ago. Just as scientists now use high voltage electric sparks (and other methods) to start the chain reaction that results in a nuclear explosion, the most skilled ksatriyas (elite warriors) of the Vedic times could use special sound vibration (mantra) to either fuse or slip atoms and thereby achieve the same explosive effect.
Here is a passage from the Mahabharata describing a nuclear attack:
�a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame, as bright as the thousand suns, rose in all its splendor�a perpendicular explosion with its billowing smoke clouds�
�the cloud of smoke rising after its first explosion formed into expanding round circles like the opening of a giant mushroom�
It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas�the corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. The hair and nails fell out; pottery broke without apparent cause and the birds turned white. After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected�
�to escape from this fire the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment.
In the Bhagavatam there is a description of the misguided warrior Asvatthama being chased by the more powerful Arjuna and, out of desperation, launching a nuclear attack against his enemy. However, Asvatthama didn�t know how to properly control the weapon and the chain reaction cascaded out of control, threatening to destroy the entire world. Arjuna, on Krishna�s advice, released a nuclear weapon of his own, merged its explosion with that of Asvatthama�s weapon and then slowed the joint reactions and retracted both weapons, saving the day.
http://www.deltaflow.com/?p=367 |
He's got you there, Fox. I mean, seriously, what possible rebuttal could you have in the face of this? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't there also a mysterious explosion with similar expanding circular clouds in Avatar that the characters in the film couldn't explain?
And the "merging" of opposing energies... |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| Perhaps "no one worthy of academic respect" in the eyes of a foolish materialist. |
Well, I'm certainly a foolish materialist. I'm a materialist because, given the total and unarguable absence of compelling evidence that the spiritual world exists, my intellectual honestly forces me to default to materialism. I'm foolish because I actually speak to you as if you're a thinking entity that could be convinced of anything, rather than simply being an indoctrinated cultist who parrots the lies of his leaders.
| Rteacher wrote: |
| Actually, a significant number of scholars and scientists have a high regard for Vedic culture's sophisticated understanding of math, science, philosophy, architecture, and spirituality, and there definitely is proof that it spread far beyond the borders of India. |
Ah, that incredibly vague term that liars like to use to deceive people. "A significant number." What does that mean? What percentage? Would it even be .1%? I doubt it.
No, a significant number of scholars and scientists do not believe Vedic culture had global influence responsible for cultural similiarities in tribal peoples the world over, which is what you asserted.
If you're interested in finding it, do your own research.
| Rteacher wrote: |
| At least one eminent scientist of the modern era thinks that some ancient warriors may well have had sufficient mastery of subtle mantra science to be able to detonate a type of nuclear weapon. |
Robert Oppenheimer was a doctor of physics, not history, anthropology, mythology, or anything else which would make him a credible source on this topic. His opinion on ancient culture is about as worthy of respect and consideration as anyone else randomly grabbed from a university campus, and if you asked him if he had proof that one could create nuclear explosions by singing, he almost assuredly would have said no.
Of course, there's a reason you're quoting vagueries like a physicist incidentally quoting an interesting, relevent passage from mythology instead of anything serious here: because really, as usual, you've got nothing. No evidence, no major scientific consensus, no strong minority scientific movement, no data, nothing repeatable, nothing. You just assert, insist, quibble, and quote from totally untrustworthy sources. So ancient Vedic lore says men used to set off atomic explosions by chanting? Great, ancient North American Lore said a magical raven put the stars into the sky one by one. If you weren't indoctrinated, you'd see how ridiculously similar those assertions are in character to one another. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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So, if there is a significant number of intelligent people on both sides of an issue, it's reasonable to assert that either position is arguably true.
What constitutes "compelling evidence" to a materialist for the existence of the spiritual world is not applicable to the search for transcendental knowledge by a spiritual aspirant who has at least preliminary faith that a Supreme Being exists.
The process of bhakti yoga boils down to pleasing the unlimitedly cognizant Supreme Person by various forms of devotional service, including prayers and chanting, which serve to gradually purify our materially contaminated senses until they can directly perceive spiritual reality.
When the Supreme Person is pleased by our pure devotional attitude, He reveals Himself - and the entire spiritual world - to such sincere practitioner (who may - or may not - have any academic qualification...)
One can please God by doing one's occupational duty faithfully - even a scientist and even a military officer in battle can please God enough so that He will reveal Himself.
In the case of the soldier, it may not even matter which side he or she is fighting on - since the "Earth Goddess" (and ultimately God) is impartial. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| So, if there is a significant number of intelligent people on both sides of an issue, it's reasonable to assert that either position is arguably true. |
1) No, there aren't a significant number of intelligent people on both sides. The overwhelming majority of intelligent people do not believe in Vedic Mythology. The term "significant number" is relative to the total population being discussed.
2) Reality isn't determined democratically. The fact that the overwhelming majority of intelligent people do not believe in Vedic Mythology doesn't prove it false, and the fact that an incredibly tiny minority of intelligent people have to some extent paid it lip service in no way gives it grounds for possibly being true.
| Rteacher wrote: |
| What constitutes "compelling evidence" to a materialist for the existence of the spiritual world is not applicable to the search for transcendental knowledge by a spiritual aspirant who has at least preliminary faith that a Supreme Being exists. |
When you've proven anything beyond the material exists, it will be worth discussing anything beyond the material. Until then, to be quite frank, you're just making nonsense up. Actually that isn't quite right, is it? Other people made nonsense up, then gulled credulous individuals such as yourself into believing it. I'd be wrong to credit you with the imagination to create a system of mythology admittedly as interesting as Vedic Mythology is.
Everything else in your post is just more of your mindless repetition of the specifics of your religion. If you want to argue your religion is true, provide evidence. If you don't have evidence, you're not going to convince anyone who isn't in an utterly pathetic state (be it emotionally, socially, or economically) and is thus is especially vulnerable to cult brainwashing.
History has shown us that the scientific method has improved our standard of living immeasurably, while the religious "method" has done nothing but hold us back. The fact that you're here, partaking in materialist society and benefitting from materialist innovations instead of living out the tenants of your religion to their acetic extreme shows that in your heart of hearts you know this to be true. If materialism is the enemy and your religion is the truth, and you're absolutely certain of it, and have true faith in it, why aren't you living it? Why do you immerse yourself in the material world, spending your time working to earn an income to afford materialist luxuries instead of living acetically?
Maybe if you had the faith to truly practice what you preach, your words would at least have the slightest ring of truth to them. But you don't, so let's drop the hypocrisy, eh? |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Rteacher wrote: |
| ... like the Sanskrit word "Avatar" itself was just incidentally chosen. |
Don't be dense, avatar is a commonly used English word. For God's sake, we have forum avatars here on Dave's. Do you think Dave's is drawing from Vedic Lore here? Don't be silly.
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Maybe they picked Avatar because Surrogates was already taken. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Rteacher, you seem like a nice enough guy and all that, but do you ever get the feeling that people aren't picking up what you're putting down? I ask you because I'm pretty sure that's what's happening here on this site.
Maybe you need a broader audience or something. |
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