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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: Ron Paul's ideas no longer fringe |
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http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ron-paul2-2010jan02,0,7842580,full.story
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For three decades, Texas congressman and former presidential candidate Ron Paul's extreme brand of libertarian economics consigned him to the far fringes even among conservatives. Not a few times, his views put him on the losing end of 434-1 votes on Capitol Hill.
No longer. With the economy still struggling and political divisions deepening, Paul's ideas not only are gaining a wider audience but also are helping to shape a potentially historic battle over economic policy -- a struggle that will affect everything including jobs, growth and the nation's place in the global economy.
Already, Paul's long-derided proposal to give Congress supervisory power over the traditionally independent Federal Reserve appears to be on its way to becoming law.
His warnings on deficits and inflation are now Republican mantras.
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"People are wondering what went wrong. And they're not happy with what the government is offering up," said James Grant, editor of Grant's Interest Rate Observer, offering an explanation for why seemingly wonkish arguments over interest rate policy and the money supply are spilling over onto ordinary Americans.
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The debate over that question -- what the basic thrust of U.S. economic policy should be -- is likely to dominate the coming elections and Washington policymaking.
And so far, Paul and his fellow conservatives are on the offensive. President Obama and congressional Democrats are repeatedly pledging not to increase the deficit and to begin cutting back soon.
"I think we're going to be in for more revival of fiscal responsibility," said William Niskanen of the Cato Institute, who headed the Council of Economic Advisors under President Reagan.
Niskanen sees the Texas Republican's increasing influence as stemming from the continued economic weakness. "To this extent, Ron Paul gains voice," he said.
Paul would go a lot further in cutting back the government's role than even free-marketers like Niskanen support. If Paul had it his way, for instance, he would do away with the Fed entirely. In his bestselling book "End the Fed," he lambasted the central bank as an "immoral, unconstitutional . . . tool of tyrannical government."
Such rhetoric might once have been dismissed as extremism. But Paul's anti-Fed message has drawn broad support because of the central bank's failure to restrain the flood of cheap money and excessive risk-taking in the years leading up to the financial crisis.
In particular, Paul is a disciple of Ludwig von Mises, an Austrian theorist born at the end of the 19th century who contended that government intervention in an economy would fail because free markets were better at allocating resources and fueling growth.
Having lived through Germany's devastating hyperinflation in the early 1920s, which helped pave the way for Hitler, Mises wrote long before the Great Depression that over-generous credit policies would encourage excessive borrowing, creating a boom and then a bust.
Mises' ideas became central to what is known as the Austrian School of economics, which emphasized tight controls on credit and money supply, a strategy that discouraged financial ups and downs but tended to slow growth.
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All that's needed is a better salesman and these new conservatives could go places. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I agree this is part of the future of the Republican Party. But it'll have to reconcile itself with social conservatism and military loyalty, the other two wings of the coalition. Because when you have two parties, everything is coalition politics.
But this could breathe new life into the GOP. I wouldn't hold my breath on it appearing too strong in 2012, though. The next half decade is for the Democrats. |
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thecount
Joined: 10 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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No, Ron Paul is still fringe, and rightly so.
It may have been "conservative" to advocate isolationist policies back in 'the day, but such an outlook today is at best dangerously ignorant and at worst fiendishly complacent.
At the risk of losing credibility through quoting a comic book, "Those with great power have great responsibility."
This is not an American-Exceptionalism rant; If England were currently the real "global power" then I would expect it to wield its influence to police the world. If Thailand had the technology, the military might and the influence, it would be their duty. Due to luck-of-the-draw, flip-of-the-coin, what-have-you, America has been in the driver's seat. We cannot blame America's interventionist policies for hatred towards us; have you ever heard anyone blame Poland's policies for the Germans invading? The isolationists do not understand this. There will always be some excuse for force or violence against us. Running desperately away from one excuse will not prevent bloodshed, only encourage it.
We should be taking an active role to stabilize the world. We have instead driven it to near economic collapse. Paul may be fiscally conservative, but he is wrong on issues that matter just as much...and SO wrong, SO often, that he should not be given any more power than he has.
If you moved into a neighborhood, and you found that a neighbor of yours was beating up his children, what would you do? Call the police?
What if you found out that YOU were the police? Would the neighborhood be better off if you ignored it all? Would *you* be safer?
Like it or not, America is stuck in this neighborhood. We can be the police, or we can let neighbors like Iran and Russia assume that role.
If you think real-estate was down this year, wait till you see THAT neighborhood. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I think what got America into trouble wasn't too much government, but rather a government too beholden to forces not really connected to the American people. The interest groups and the Wall Street guys who weren't properly regulated helped create this mess. I don't believe that there should be no regulation. Paul Krugman believes in regulation. We're in this mess after we had years of deregulation starting with Ronald Reagan. I don't believe in excessive borrowing to bail out banks. Creditors shouldn't have been taking such huge risks in a way that would have forced the people to bail them out. The way the economy is connected to the people is not democratic, but I don't think Obama will rectify that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| thecount wrote: |
No, Ron Paul is still fringe, and rightly so.
It may have been "conservative" to advocate isolationist policies back in 'the day, but such an outlook today is at best dangerously ignorant and at worst fiendishly complacent.
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Yes, and advocating isolationism may be conservative yet again. The original neo-conservatives were against nation-building until Clinton came along. It flips at least once a generation.
| thecount wrote: |
| We should be taking an active role to stabilize the world. We have instead driven it to near economic collapse. Paul may be fiscally conservative, but he is wrong on issues that matter just as much...and SO wrong, SO often, that he should not be given any more power than he has. |
I'd like you to expand on this. HOW has Ron Paul been so wrong and HOW often? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| I think what got America into trouble wasn't too much government, but rather a government too beholden to forces not really connected to the American people. The interest groups and the Wall Street guys who weren't properly regulated helped create this mess. I don't believe that there should be no regulation. Paul Krugman believes in regulation. We're in this mess after we had years of deregulation starting with Ronald Reagan. I don't believe in excessive borrowing to bail out banks. Creditors shouldn't have been taking such huge risks in a way that would have forced the people to bail them out. The way the economy is connected to the people is not democratic, but I don't think Obama will rectify that. |
Here's another view:
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The reason why it was so easy to borrow all this money to buy houses was because of securitization. First it started with Freddie and Fannie. [Freddie and Fannie guarantee over half of home mortgages and were the biggest buyers of subprime mortgages]. If it wasn't for Freddie Mae and Fannie Mac, Americans couldn't have borrowed all this money to buy all these houses. The only reason they did it was because the US govt was co-signing all their mortgages. And people knew that if you lend someone money to buy a house and they can't pay you back, the govt will pay you back. So people were allowed to borrow a lot more money than a free market would've allowed because the govt was there co-signing it. We had too many people buying houses and credit was cheap.
Normally, when people are greedy, they're also fearful of loss, and people's fear of loss overcomes their greed and checks their behavior. But what the govt did repeatedly was try to remove the fear. They tried to make speculating as riskless as possible. First, they provided us with almost costless money with which to speculate. And then they created the idea that whenever's there's a problem, don't worry, the govt will rescue you; the govt's not going to let your bets go bad, so go ahead and keep placing them.
Once you separate the originator of the mortgage from the risk of the mortgage, you've got the moral hazard. Nobody cares what banks do with our money once we put it there, because it's all insured by the govt. People do a lot of research when they go out and buy a plasma TV, but nobody does any research before they put their money in a bank - because the govt has created a moral hazard by guaranteeing the accounts. If the govt did not guarantee bank accounts, then banks would not be doing foolish things with our deposit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgMclXX5msc |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Paul always says "no" to the plans of government. Which means he is almost always right. I'm sure if he becomes a little more popular the msm will dig up some opinion he had in the 50's and throw it on the front page of every paper in the world, thereby protecting the bankster and other oligopoly interests. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| thecount wrote: |
No, Ron Paul is still fringe, and rightly so.
It may have been "conservative" to advocate isolationist policies back in 'the day, but such an outlook today is at best dangerously ignorant and at worst fiendishly complacent.
At the risk of losing credibility through quoting a comic book, "Those with great power have great responsibility."
This is not an American-Exceptionalism rant; If England were currently the real "global power" then I would expect it to wield its influence to police the world. If Thailand had the technology, the military might and the influence, it would be their duty. Due to luck-of-the-draw, flip-of-the-coin, what-have-you, America has been in the driver's seat. We cannot blame America's interventionist policies for hatred towards us; have you ever heard anyone blame Poland's policies for the Germans invading? The isolationists do not understand this. There will always be some excuse for force or violence against us. Running desperately away from one excuse will not prevent bloodshed, only encourage it.
We should be taking an active role to stabilize the world. We have instead driven it to near economic collapse. Paul may be fiscally conservative, but he is wrong on issues that matter just as much...and SO wrong, SO often, that he should not be given any more power than he has.
If you moved into a neighborhood, and you found that a neighbor of yours was beating up his children, what would you do? Call the police?
What if you found out that YOU were the police? Would the neighborhood be better off if you ignored it all? Would *you* be safer?
Like it or not, America is stuck in this neighborhood. We can be the police, or we can let neighbors like Iran and Russia assume that role.
If you think real-estate was down this year, wait till you see THAT neighborhood. |
I am your stereotypical Clinton/Obama Democrat. That is, I support free trade, do think social programs can provide a greater good, diplomacy is essential, we should engage the world, yada yada yada.
That being said, the last few years I've become disillusioned. Yes, most of that time Bush was President. And there has been a little progress made by Obama. That being said...
We're throwing money down the toilet in Afghanistan. It looks like we're starting to do the same with Yemen. We have given ____ billions to Israel for the past 3-4 decades. Israel is a DEVELOPED COUNTRY. Why the hell should my money go to killing and opressing a bunch of people? Even if you were to argue that the Palestinians deserve all the punishment they've received, why the hell should you and I be paying for it?? That's Israel's problem, not mine. I'm all for helping out others, but we NEED to realize there are lost causes.
And that is why Ron Paul is gaining popularity. Our government has become even more dumb in its involvement abroad. At least that is how your average American perceives it.
Of course it could be argued we've always been this stupid in dishing out "aid". Fair enough. Alas, in the past our public finances weren't in such bad shape, so it didn't matter nearly as much. Now it certainly does.
So no, the US should not disengage with the world, but the RP people do have a legitimate argument. We've gotten ourselves involved in too much BS in a time where we can't afford to. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Why the hell should my money go to killing and opressing a bunch of people? Even if you were to argue that the Palestinians deserve all the punishment they've received, why the hell should you and I be paying for it?? |
The usual replies...
1. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.
2. Israel is surrounded by enemies.
3. Israel is the Apple Of God's Eye and woe betide anyone who fails to stand by her in her hour of need.
And that's about it. Suffice to say I find the first two arguments non-sequetorial as far as justifiying outside aid goes. The last one does sort of have its own internal consistency. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Why the hell should my money go to killing and opressing a bunch of people? Even if you were to argue that the Palestinians deserve all the punishment they've received, why the hell should you and I be paying for it?? |
The usual replies...
1. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.
2. Israel is surrounded by enemies.
3. Israel is the Apple Of God's Eye and woe betide anyone who fails to stand by her in her hour of need.
And that's about it. Suffice to say I find the first two arguments non-sequetorial as far as justifiying outside aid goes. The last one does sort of have its own internal consistency. |
You forgot to add that many politicians are afraid of criticizing Israel. They fear in many cases that they will lose their Congressional seats.
Pro-Israeli fellows out there have a lot of clout and there are many interest groups mobilized for the sake of Israel. I mean Jesse Helms, when he wanted to cut off aid, had tons of money poured into his challenger and almost lost. After that, Helms went to Israel and wore a yarmulke. I definitely agree with the other things that some religious Americans interpret the Bible in a way that leads to ignore the abuses committed by Israel against the minority under its control. Thus American foreign policy is influenced to some extent on the idea of making a Jesus return. One can't really say that applies to Western Europeans, but the US runs the show.
As far as economics, the government is beholden to some powerful commercial interests. I believe in democracy and simply leaving everything to the market doesn't work. It leads to monopolies, exploiting of the people, and that's why Europeans violently opposed the system they had in the old days. Unfortunately, too many Americans are complacent and allow careless capitalists to have too much power.
I can understand that in some areas, you don't want intervention for example you don't want so much borrowing, you don't want a very artificial credit situation. This is what the powers that be wanted, it's not what the American people asked for per se. The American people simply go along with what's out there, and they hope the government will do what's in their interest.
Last edited by Adventurer on Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| I believe in democracy and simply leaving everything to the market doesn't work. It leads to monopolies, exploiting of the people, and that's why Europeans violently opposed the system they had in the old days. |
This is just the dumbest thing. How deep in the sand is your head. 33% of the US GDP is tied up in Fanny/Freddie. Capitalism? Monopolies? There is just no hope. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:41 am Post subject: |
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You forgot to add that many politicians are afraid of criticizing Israel. They fear in many cases that they will lose their Congressional seats.
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True. But I was citing the arguments that are openly used in discussions about Israel. Nobody ever comes right out and says publically "Congress should keep supporting Israel otherwise they'll lose a lot of funding from the Israel lobby".
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| Thus American foreign policy is influenced to some extent on the idea of making a Jesus return. |
I think it would be more accurate to say that American political rhetoric for the domestic market uses the idea of Jesus' return. I don't imagine that too many graduates of the Kennedy School Of Government take that eschatological stuff seriously. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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You forgot to add that many politicians are afraid of criticizing Israel. They fear in many cases that they will lose their Congressional seats.
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True. But I was citing the arguments that are openly used in discussions about Israel. Nobody ever comes right out and says publically "Congress should keep supporting Israel otherwise they'll lose a lot of funding from the Israel lobby".
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| Thus American foreign policy is influenced to some extent on the idea of making a Jesus return. |
I think it would be more accurate to say that American political rhetoric for the domestic market uses the idea of Jesus' return. I don't imagine that too many graduates of the Kennedy School Of Government take that eschatological stuff seriously. |
Frankly, American foreign policy and economics have long been rather messy. I do think that special interest groups have too much say in both economic policy and foreign policy. The American people want social security, they want limited welfare, many want affordable health care and access to health care, and they don't want a situation where banks and various corporations take crazy risks. Why didn't this happen in the 70s or early 80s? What exactly changed to where these financial institutions acted in this fashion.
As far as Israel, the US Government is affected by the views of its constituens to some extent. Yes, there are some Evangelical groups who don't think about human rights and want the Messiah while others do.
Also, many Americans want a more moderate policy in Israel. They are pro-Israeli, but they think Israel goes too far and the US should put the breaks on Israel when it does go too far, which is fair, but the US does not. The US must balance its interests between its Jewish allies and its Arab allies and what not. It's not balanced, and that poses a problem.
Either completely withdraw and don't help either and cut off aid to both Egypt and Israel or be balanced. |
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Emark
Joined: 10 May 2007
Location: duh, Korea?
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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This thread needs an Alex Jones enema. LOL
Most people are and will always be asleep to what is really happening. Alex might wake some up as long as they aren't too taken back by his style.
AntiTerrorist on You Tube is great as is Deek Jackson of the FKN news. Those Brits are so educationally entertaining. Canadians should watch the productions made by Robert Menard. If anyone is interested in listening to audio pod casts, George Gordon dot org has some really eye opening stuff about the state of America.
If you have never ever heard of these people, you may still be under the deception and illusion that the mainstream media, banks, and government are working for your best interest. You might even believe that the war on terror and war on drugs are honest, admirable and just causes. Wake Up. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Emark wrote: |
This thread needs an Alex Jones enema. LOL
Most people are and will always be asleep to what is really happening. Alex might wake some up as long as they aren't too taken back by his style.
AntiTerrorist on You Tube is great as is Deek Jackson of the FKN news. Those Brits are so educationally entertaining. Canadians should watch the productions made by Robert Menard. If anyone is interested in listening to audio pod casts, George Gordon dot org has some really eye opening stuff about the state of America.
If you have never ever heard of these people, you may still be under the deception and illusion that the mainstream media, banks, and government are working for your best interest. You might even believe that the war on terror and war on drugs are honest, admirable and just causes. Wake Up. |
you don't follow this forum much do you? |
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