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Higher level jobs
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Katie26



Joined: 06 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:35 pm    Post subject: Higher level jobs Reply with quote

Hi guys,

Ok guys so I've been in korea for nearly a year now and looking at my options for what to do afterwards. Basically I'm not willing to sign up for another year 'just' teaching. I'd want some other responsibilities maybe managing staff, training etc. I have some prior management experience at home and was wondering how realistic/feasible this is to do in Asia. If any of you could offer some advice it would be much appreciated

I'm guessing Korea would be the best bet but would certainly consider other Asian countries.
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8 years down



Joined: 16 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I taught at hagwons and public schools for 6 years before finally getting a "non-teaching" position. It isn't easy to find one, but they are out there. Some companies are looking for people to manage teachers, or write textbooks, curriculum, or do editing or quality control.

The difficult thing is that these companies don't usually sponsor working Visas. I only have my current job because I'm on an F2.

Do you work in the public school system? or at a Hagwon? Some of the bigger hagwon franchises that do their own curriculum development have those types of positions, but they often promote from within.

Good luck in your search.
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mc_jc



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you speak Korean?
DO you speak Korean?
DO YOU speak Korean?
DO YOU SPEAK Korean?
DO YOU SPEAK KOREAN?

Do you see where I am going with this?

All jokes aside, unless it is a foreign company or you have to have a skill that can't be found in Korea or is in short supply. Also, you have to keep in mind that many foreign companies tend to hire their non-Korean staff outside the country (but there are exceptions to the rule).
But there are still many options; you could start your own company (though in this economic climate, it would've be a preferred option at the moment). You could also be a recruiter. Have you thought about applying to universities and colleges? Many who have stayed in the system for a while tend to apply to the many universities and colleges around the country.


Added~
Have you thought about China?
Right now, there is a huge hiring blitz over there and they are hiring foreigners with professional experience and have little to no Chinese linguistic ability. They get paid either the same as they would in the west (based on their experience) or alittle less. A friend of mine is the sole English instructor at a Chinese hospital and he is making about $3500US a month. Despite what you hear, there is money to be made in China.

As for non-ESL jobs in Korea, I'd suggest you do a search here and also do a sample job search in the career field you are interested in doing here so you get an idea of what companies here look for.


Good luck


Last edited by mc_jc on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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redaxe



Joined: 01 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Higher level jobs Reply with quote

Katie26 wrote:

I'd want some other responsibilities maybe managing staff, training etc. I have some prior management experience at home and was wondering how realistic/feasible this is to do in Asia. If any of you could offer some advice it would be much appreciated


Not very feasible in Korea unless maybe if you're a gyopo. Koreans do not like to be managed or trained by foreigners. You could find a job at a Korean company even if your Korean is not perfect, it is possible. Especially if you are some sort of scientist or engineer. But unless maybe you are an executive at a foreign company operating in Korea (and most of these are hired overseas and sent here later as mc_jc pointed out), do not expect to be assigned to any kind of leadership role. Koreans do not take orders from non-Koreans, it's a pride thing.

Also, as 8 years down said, if you want to get hired by a company here, you will probably need to marry a Korean and get an F visa first.

I work for a major "chaebol" company with over 200 offices worldwide and nowhere in our corporate hierarchy will you ever find a Korean reporting directly to a non-Korean boss. I was hired in the U.S. by the way, so I got the E-7 visa. I don't know if an E-7 is even available to people hired in-country.

Sorry if this is discouraging, but really Korea is one of the worst places in Asia for a foreigner to find a good company job that does not involve teaching English. Not to mention the awful hours you'll be working, with no overtime pay, if you do get hired.

I think in Asia, Shanghai, Hong Kong or Singapore would all be much better places for your professional development. They all have a lot more expats, so the networking potential is much, much greater than in Korea. They're also quite a bit more English-friendly.
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Lunar Groove Gardener



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: 1987 Subaru

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Within the teaching industry management and program development is best served by those with a proven committment in the field of education.

You might research companies in your home country which have Korean counterparts. Then contact them with a resume that emphasises skills and experiences which cater to the type of position which they may have and lays out your career goals.

In this way your inquiries will fall upon willing ears and you'll perhaps get a more meaningful response.
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morrisonhotel



Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mc_jc wrote:

Added~
Have you thought about China?
Right now, there is a huge hiring blitz over there and they are hiring foreigners with professional experience and have little to no Chinese linguistic ability. They get paid either the same as they would in the west (based on their experience) or alittle less. A friend of mine is the sole English instructor at a Chinese hospital and he is making about $3500US a month. Despite what you hear, there is money to be made in China.


Agreed on China. One of my friends has just been hired by a Chinese marine engineering firm on a three year contract. He'll be based in Shanghai. He'll be earning roughly what he earns in the UK (about �60000 a year). He also gets his food and accommodation paid for him. Seems like a pretty sweet deal.
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Katie26



Joined: 06 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your advice all , definitely some food for thought.
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a few friends who are financial editors, and they all started out as teachers. They have E-7 visas, extended contracts, and make more money than anyone I've ever met in Korea working in management, bar none. Not all positions at all places pay the same, and there is a pecking order largely based on 1) type of degree, 2) experience, and 3) ability (catch 22 as you need the experience to increase ability). Only people I've met who've come close to or surpassed clearing that amount of coin have been in finance.

Writing for a company? Wouldn't wast my time unless you just wanted to get in, get trained up on writing for a particular purpose (e.g. a specific test), and get out to make a go of it on your own. Those places milk you hard and make a bundle and a half off of your work. Daunting prospect with little long-term upside other than managing others naive enough to take the job.

Managing teachers? Usually involves a little more pay, and you're basically the go-between for the Korean management so that they don't have to deal with foreigner teachers. Bad news? Deliver it...oh, and you'll also be teaching today. Again, only the naive take these jobs; they're burned out from being overused as a teacher and want to get into 'management'. No go.

Corporate jobs? Possible, but the people I've known over the year who have gone that route have all quit in a matter of years. As a previous poster mentioned, you're looking at little responsibility, a lot of corporate culture infusion, long days, little vacation, and, in the end, not much to put on your resume.

Own your own hakwon? Yeesh. What a headache. There have been posts upon posts dealing with the intracacies of this process, and none have made the prospect flattering. If you have the visa, better to just open a study room at your own place and hunker down.

There are opportunities out there. It is a tough place to make it unless you come in with a corporationg. You can also make a lucrative place for yourself here on your own, but, then again, the system works in favour of Kyopo and spouses of Koreans.

This could go on and on....but it won't. Wink
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IlIlNine



Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Location: Gunpo, Gyonggi, SoKo

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Higher level jobs Reply with quote

redaxe wrote:

Not very feasible in Korea unless maybe if you're a gyopo. Koreans do not like to be managed or trained by foreigners. You could find a job at a Korean company even if your Korean is not perfect, it is possible. Especially if you are some sort of scientist or engineer. But unless maybe you are an executive at a foreign company operating in Korea (and most of these are hired overseas and sent here later as mc_jc pointed out), do not expect to be assigned to any kind of leadership role. Koreans do not take orders from non-Koreans, it's a pride thing.

Also, as 8 years down said, if you want to get hired by a company here, you will probably need to marry a Korean and get an F visa first.

I work for a major "chaebol" company with over 200 offices worldwide and nowhere in our corporate hierarchy will you ever find a Korean reporting directly to a non-Korean boss. I was hired in the U.S. by the way, so I got the E-7 visa. I don't know if an E-7 is even available to people hired in-country.


I work at a chaebol with countless offices worldwide. I got hired in-country, and now work on an E7 visa. I'm hired on as a full-time employee (no set contract), so I can stay here until I retire, if I have a mind to.

It's not easy, and the hours are certainly not ideal, but it's quite a learning experience! My Korean ability helps out a lot though. There aren't any foreigners here with poor-or-no korean skills... they wouldn't survive long, I think.

As for leadership roles - I really don't think it's a matter of pride. I think mostly it's a cultural thing. Koreans (in Korea) do not respond well to foreign-style management. I think if a person who spent a lot of time in-country and in-company, and earned their peers' respect, they would be given the chance to manage a Korean team. Those hired from abroad haven't really had enough korean exposure, I think.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have a few friends who are financial editors, and they all started out as teachers. They have E-7 visas, extended contracts, and make more money than anyone I've ever met in Korea working in management, bar none


I'm not having a go and I asked about this subject before but didn't get an answer. I'm curious about this business of people knowing how much everyone they know earns and was wondering if it was just an American/Canadian trait. Being a middle class Brit, the only salaries I know about are the ones I read about on this board or people I know doing similar jobs to me that I can guess at. I'd never dream of asking anyone outright and would feel embarassed if someone told me how much they made themselves. Is it normal practice to discuss this issue openly in other cultures? Did you ask your friends yourself or did they volunteer the information? Is it ok to ask someone in a different job to you how much they earn? Wouldn't they consider it none of your business? It's certainly a taboo subject in the UK. You hear stories about Americans introducing themselves in this way, 'Hello, I'm Chester Weinburger' and I made 200,000 dollars last year etc.... Is this really true? Once again not having a go just genuinely curious.
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redaxe



Joined: 01 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
I have a few friends who are financial editors, and they all started out as teachers. They have E-7 visas, extended contracts, and make more money than anyone I've ever met in Korea working in management, bar none


I'm not having a go and I asked about this subject before but didn't get an answer. I'm curious about this business of people knowing how much everyone they know earns and was wondering if it was just an American/Canadian trait. Being a middle class Brit, the only salaries I know about are the ones I read about on this board or people I know doing similar jobs to me that I can guess at. I'd never dream of asking anyone outright and would feel embarassed if someone told me how much they made themselves. Is it normal practice to discuss this issue openly in other cultures? Did you ask your friends yourself or did they volunteer the information? Is it ok to ask someone in a different job to you how much they earn? Wouldn't they consider it none of your business? It's certainly a taboo subject in the UK. You hear stories about Americans introducing themselves in this way, 'Hello, I'm Chester Weinburger' and I made 200,000 dollars last year etc.... Is this really true? Once again not having a go just genuinely curious.


Haha, well, it does seem to be a North American thing. I don't ask people what they make, but they often tell me, and I usually tell them if they ask me. If it's a friend, it's not taboo, but if it's a coworker it's kind of taboo.

I think Americans have much more of a culture where we pat ourselves on the back for how much we earn because to us it's a personal accomplishment to be proud of. Bragging is definitely a forgivable offense in America (just listen to rap music, the lyrics basically consist entirely of bragging). Envy is a much greater sin than pride in America. Jealousy is seen as the jealous person's fault, not the braggart's fault for making them feel jealous.

Whereas in Korea it seems totally OK to be openly jealous of someone and demand that things be made "fair." Everyone has to know their place and if anyone gets something they are not seen as deserving based on their social status, they will be harassed for it.

Maybe English and other European cultures are somewhere in between?
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I think in the UK if someone volunteered information on how much money they made in a way that wasn't self-depreciating, most people would just think they were a *beep*/idiot/jerk. Meanwhile people don't like to ask others about their salaries in case they are ashamed at how little they earn. When people are asked occasionally they often fob the questioner off with phrases like 'not enough'. Consequently I don't know what any of my friends (not in my profession) , or even members of my immediate family, make
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PRagic



Joined: 24 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before this gets out of hand, I only know what they make because a few of them asked me for advice during the initial and follow up interviews and when they were up for promotions or pay hikes. I've seen them rise through the ranks from when this wasn't even a viable career option in Korea.

Nough said. Move along. Nothing to see here...
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
more money than anyone I've ever met in Korea working in management, bar none


For this part to be true doesn't it mean you would have to know what all the other people you've met in management in Korea make too?
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red_devil



Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redaxe wrote:
edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
I have a few friends who are financial editors, and they all started out as teachers. They have E-7 visas, extended contracts, and make more money than anyone I've ever met in Korea working in management, bar none


I'm not having a go and I asked about this subject before but didn't get an answer. I'm curious about this business of people knowing how much everyone they know earns and was wondering if it was just an American/Canadian trait. Being a middle class Brit, the only salaries I know about are the ones I read about on this board or people I know doing similar jobs to me that I can guess at. I'd never dream of asking anyone outright and would feel embarassed if someone told me how much they made themselves. Is it normal practice to discuss this issue openly in other cultures? Did you ask your friends yourself or did they volunteer the information? Is it ok to ask someone in a different job to you how much they earn? Wouldn't they consider it none of your business? It's certainly a taboo subject in the UK. You hear stories about Americans introducing themselves in this way, 'Hello, I'm Chester Weinburger' and I made 200,000 dollars last year etc.... Is this really true? Once again not having a go just genuinely curious.


Haha, well, it does seem to be a North American thing. I don't ask people what they make, but they often tell me, and I usually tell them if they ask me. If it's a friend, it's not taboo, but if it's a coworker it's kind of taboo.

I think Americans have much more of a culture where we pat ourselves on the back for how much we earn because to us it's a personal accomplishment to be proud of. Bragging is definitely a forgivable offense in America (just listen to rap music, the lyrics basically consist entirely of bragging). Envy is a much greater sin than pride in America. Jealousy is seen as the jealous person's fault, not the braggart's fault for making them feel jealous.

Whereas in Korea it seems totally OK to be openly jealous of someone and demand that things be made "fair." Everyone has to know their place and if anyone gets something they are not seen as deserving based on their social status, they will be harassed for it.

Maybe English and other European cultures are somewhere in between?


I work in a large company and i've never had my co-workers tell or ask me my salary. It's not openly discussed here AT ALL because it promotes jealousy (regardless of who or where it comes from) and that's the kind of environment the management doesn't want to have period. But that's a good management team. In some VERY Korean style companies, if you complain to the management they'll just tell you "they don't give a shit, and suck it up or leave". Koreans may complain to their bosses that things "aren't fair" but they don't "demand it" and they accept any decision made by their boss as final...or they quit. I don't think being "openly jealous" is accepted here. Most Koreans will never be "openly jealous" because it makes them look horrible in front of others. They'd most likely talk about it behind that person's back while drinking or having lunch. Rumormongering is just as big here as it is in the states.

Being humble is definitely a good trait in Korea and the ultimate compliment is when Koreans mention that person as "being very humble". I found Koreans are most jealous about different Korean titles and the biggest cause of unrest comes from what they might feel is an "unfair Korean title" especially if the person is younger than what the standard is. I've had co-workers definitely use the "I'm a 상무, etc" in conversations.

Of course in the bigger picture socially there's a bit of a double standard. People try to stand out without standing out. They buy luxury items, car brand is a status symbol, where you live, what building complex it is, what phone you have, the clothing brands you wear, where you shop, etc, there is an inherent need to be categorized by Korean society and to "have a place". This can be comforting or frustrating depending on the individual. On the whole I think Koreans tend to be a bit more subtle (or clever) when it comes to showing off.
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