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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| NovaKart wrote: |
| In places as diverse as Russia, the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Nigeria, Egypt and India there have been problems between Muslims and people of other religions and/or the central government. I know there are other reasons for this conflict other than just Muslim intolerance, but it really does make you wonder why Muslims are so often the common denominator. |
Read the Koran and visit an Arab country, and it will be quite clear! |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ytuque wrote: |
Read the Koran and visit an Arab country, and it will be quite clear! |
"But no, ytuque, I'm too PC to see it as being on such simple terms!" |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| NovaKart wrote: |
| In places as diverse as Russia, the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Nigeria, Egypt and India there have been problems between Muslims and people of other religions and/or the central government. I know there are other reasons for this conflict other than just Muslim intolerance, but it really does make you wonder why Muslims are so often the common denominator. |
Let's take thing on a case by case basis.
1)Egypt:
In Egypt, the Christian minority often deals with, in the country side, in what's called Upper Egypt clashes with Muslim peasants. You keep hearing about that all the time in Egypt, but you don't hear about it in neighboring Jordan. The Jordanian Muslims don't see the need to pick a fight with Jordanian Christians. About 90% of Jordanians were educated in 2001 and about 53% of Egyptians were. I don't mean that out of disrespect for Egyptians at all.
2)Russian and Chechnya
Let's take a look at Russia. In Russia, some Chechnyans were fighting Russia, not all. Chechnya was forcibly annexed by the Russian Empire.
They are ethnic group where many don't want to be part of Russia.
It's not simply some religious fault-line. It's an ethnic thing. The Abkhazians broke off from Georgia with Russian help. 70% of Abkhazians are Christians. However, Chechnyans were not allowed to break off, but it was fine for Russia to help part of Georgia to break off.
3)Indonesia:
In Indonesia, it's more of a case of intolerant elements in the Aceh region who are fanatical and don't like Christians. At least, that's my understanding.
4)Malaysia:
Generally peaceful relations between minorities except for the anger at some Malay Christians calling God Allah. Nevermind, Christian Arab speakers do the same thing and face no problems for doing so. Violence is not commonplace there, and hopefully it won't become common.
5)Thailand:
In Thailand it's rather quiet now. The Muslims in Thailand are not Thais. They are Malays ethnically, and they were pushed into Thailand. They had a separate Sultanate. There was a sort of peace and understanding between them and the Thais until certain things in terms of how the Thai Government was dealing with them and then certain Muslim elements reacted negatively and violently to the change. I can't remember what it was in terms of the conduct of the government that set them off. I haven't heard that they particularly want to separate. I haven't heard anything lately regarding them.
6)The Phillipines:
In the Phillipines, some of the Muslims want a separate state in Mindanao. Muslims account for 10% of the population of the Phillipines.
I don't see why they can't co-exist with the Catholic Filipinos. Those fighting the government will probably lose out. I am not an expert on Abu Sayyaf, but the Filipinos seem to have things under control.
7)China and the Uighurs
In China, there is a Turkic speaking population called Uighurs. They do not want to be absorbed by the Han Chinese and consider them a threat to their national group, and, yes, they are Muslim and Turkic people who would rather be separate from China. The Uighurs are racially a 60% mixture of European with 40% East Asian. They are in the area where the Taklaman Mummies were found, but these Uighurs have ancestry in common with old Russian stock from their European genes, and they speak Turkish. They aren't simply fighting because they are Muslim and the Han Chinese are not.
The creation of borders in countries were separate identities are still considered important flies in face of industrialization, powerful states etc.... |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Lots of trees here, but just can't seem to find the forest. |
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ytuque
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Lots of trees here, but just can't seem to find the forest. |
Missed quite a few trees as well! |
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NovaKart
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: |
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I stayed in Georgia for about 6 months so admittedly my sources of information of this are very biased towards Georgia. They accuse Russia of instigating a seperatist agenda in Abkhazia. The independence of Abkhazia is recognized only by Russia and a few other small countries like Nicaragua. This puts Abkhazia in a position where they are heavily dependent on Russia and Russia has a lot of influence and control in the region. I think Turkey also gives some aid or something or other to Abkhazia I vaguely remember seeing a pamphlet or something like that in Turkey. The situation is similar in South Ossettia.
Indonesia - Theres been violence between Christians and Muslims in Sulawesi and Borneo too. I read somewhere its calmed down a lot in recent years.
The Uighurs are Turkic people, I wouldnt say they are European. They speak a Turkic language, different enough from the Turkish of Turkey that they cant understand it. Ive tried speaking in Turkish to a Uyghur and an Uzbek person and neither could understand it.
I read a Chinese book once where they said the Tajiks were Europeans in China. The Tajiks come from an indo-european background and their language has a lot in common with Farsi, but I wouldnt say theyre European any more than Iranians are. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Is "Eurabia" just a bunch of hogwash? |
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FP is wrong.
http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0105bb.html
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While Europe Sneered
Kurt Westergaard and other brave critics of Islamic fanaticism continue to fend for themselves.
5 January 2010
Yesterday, a friend sent me a link to an article entitled �Eurabian Follies� on the website of the journal Foreign Policy. The author, Justin Va�sse, took to task several authors, including me, who have warned in recent years of the Islamization of Europe. Va�sse countered these authors� mountains of hard facts with a big helping of the usual supercilious sneering. His thesis: Europe is chugging along just fine; Islam poses no real challenge to the continent�s freedom and prosperity; after all, the �experts� say so. Never mind the draining of European welfare systems by Muslim families, the explosion in rapes and gay-bashings and Jew-baitings, the proliferation of honor killings and forced marriages and no-go zones; never mind the murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh by fanatics who objected to those men�s positions on Islam; never mind the threats directed at critics of Islam, such as Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Robert Redeker, which have obliged them to live in hiding or with round-the-clock bodyguards.
The timing of Va�sse�s article was unfortunate�for him, anyway: it appeared around the time of the Christmas Day terrorist attack on Detroit-bound Northwest Flight 253 and the New Year�s Day assassination attempt on Kurt Westergaard, creator of the famous Mohammed-in-a-bomb-turban cartoon published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten. (Only a bathroom that had been converted to a panic room in Westergaard�s house saved the artist from an axe-wielding Islamist maniac.) Let�s not even mention the over 1,000 cars torched in French cities on New Year�s Eve, which is becoming an annual tradition among that nation�s Muslim youth.
As it happened, I received the link to Va�sse�s article on the same day that I discovered that my dear friend Hege Storhaug had once, like Westergaard, been a target of violence, apparently because of her criticism of Islam. Hege is a former journalist and longtime women�s rights activist in Oslo whose concern about the treatment of women and girls in Muslim communities made her a pioneering critic of Islam in Norway. Time and again she has taken extraordinary personal risks to stand up for females who are confined to their homes, who are denied educations and careers, and who are the victims (or potential victims) of honor killing, genital mutilation, forced marriage, and sundry forms of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse.
In 2006, her book But the Greatest of All Is Freedom: On the Consequences of Immigration became a huge�and controversial�best-seller in Norway. At the time, Hege lived in a neighborhood called Kampen, a part of Oslo that brings to mind the Haight-Ashbury or East Village of the 1960s. Hege notes that after her book began to sell big�and draw harsh media attacks�her neighborhood was papered over with posters featuring a photo of her with an X drawn over her face, along with the slogan NO TO RACISTS IN KAMPEN. Then one day�as Hege revealed in a powerful account posted yesterday on the website of Human Rights Service, the small foundation where she works�one or more people broke into her home, beat her, and left her bruised and unconscious in a pool of blood on the floor. Nothing was stolen. The date was January 1, 2007�three years to the day before the attempted murder of Westergaard.
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In her Monday post, Hege suggested that if all the influential newspapers in Europe had published the Danish cartoons, �it would have been much more difficult to build up the increasingly brutal climate we see now all over Europe: the fact that people are not just the subjects of attacks, and of attempted murder, but are denied virtually all personal freedom in their daily lives, so that Westergaard cannot set foot outside his home without the police on his heels, just as Robert Redeker is living underground in the homeland of Voltaire.� And she asked: �Will Europe manage to set its foot down strongly enough . . . that there will be no doubt that the continent never will give up its founding values? Or will the commentariat and political elite continue to give way, inch by inch . . . ?� Any of us, she warned, can end up a Kurt Westergaard if we dare to speak our minds. But don�t tell that to the �experts� at Foreign Policy. |
OTOH, you are not seriously going to argue that the switch from post-Christian to assertive muslim demographics will be without noticeable difference? Or, are you just going to argue the maths? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Or, are you just going to argue the maths? |
Well, isn't the Eurabia argument, as enunciated by Steyn et al, based precisely on the demographic math? Steyn and Company don't just say that there are problems with Muslim communities in Europe, they argue that as a result of demographics, Muslims will overtake "post-Christians" in a matter of decades.
The City Journal article doesn't address that issue. But they do conflate Muslim terrorist attacks with Muslim gay bashing. But, even without settled Muslim immigrant communities in Europe, you'd likely still have terrorism, since(as I think Ron Paul has argued), the terrorists are responding not to the liberalism of post-Christian Europe, but to the foreign-policy of Europe and the US. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Well, isn't the Eurabia argument, as enunciated by Steyn et al, based precisely on the demographic math? Steyn and Company don't just say that there are problems with Muslim communities in Europe, they argue that as a result of demographics, Muslims will overtake "post-Christians" in a matter of decades. |
Yes.
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| The City Journal article doesn't address that issue. But they do conflate Muslim terrorist attacks with Muslim gay bashing. But, even without settled Muslim immigrant communities in Europe, you'd likely still have terrorism, since(as I think Ron Paul has argued), the terrorists are responding not to the liberalism of post-Christian Europe, but to the foreign-policy of Europe and the US. |
Fun, that FP supports both muslim immigration and attacking muslim states and then demands no problems between the two. |
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rocket_scientist
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Location: Prague
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| In London - I'm unhappy the locals are being replaced as I was going to spend this week looking at the local women but I see foreign men more often. Not happy. I wanted to see some viscous long red Scot hair but I see lots of whiskers instead. Fail. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Or, are you just going to argue the maths? |
Well, isn't the Eurabia argument, as enunciated by Steyn et al, based precisely on the demographic math? Steyn and Company don't just say that there are problems with Muslim communities in Europe, they argue that as a result of demographics, Muslims will overtake "post-Christians" in a matter of decades.
The City Journal article doesn't address that issue. But they do conflate Muslim terrorist attacks with Muslim gay bashing. But, even without settled Muslim immigrant communities in Europe, you'd likely still have terrorism, since(as I think Ron Paul has argued), the terrorists are responding not to the liberalism of post-Christian Europe, but to the foreign-policy of Europe and the US. |
There's a demographic argument and a cultural argument.
You're right, OTOH, the demographic argument is bunk. It relies on current trends of immigration and large-scale demographics remaining stable. Also, the books are based on a lot of inflated statistics for Muslim birthrates in Europe.
I don't take the cultural argument seriously enough to even bother refuting. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe Europe will someday end up like the USA, where Arabs currently earn more money and pay more taxes per capita than whites. |
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rocket_scientist
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Location: Prague
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| Maybe Europe will someday end up like the USA, where Arabs currently earn more money and pay more taxes per capita than whites. |
What about Jews Reggie? Do you think Arabs will ever make as much money as Jews? |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| rocket_scientist wrote: |
| Reggie wrote: |
| Maybe Europe will someday end up like the USA, where Arabs currently earn more money and pay more taxes per capita than whites. |
What about Jews Reggie? Do you think Arabs will ever make as much money as Jews? |
I don't know a lot about Europe, but when I was in the UK and France last month, I didn't see the number of Arabs there that a lot here seem to see. The low number of Arabs took me by surprise after all that I had read on here about Eurabia, etc.
After everyone's cash savings hyperinflate away this decade and people start anew on relatively equal ground, I think immigrant groups and outsiders will thrive because of entreprenurial spirit. I think many Jews and many Arabs will do exceptionally well. I'm guessing the Jews there are probably a lot better educated than Arabs and everyone else in Europe and will be successful as a result. If oil producing countries buy up a lot of European companies, that would benefit a lot of Arab families.
I really don't know who will make more between Jews and Arabs, but I do know Europe will be very lucky to have both to attract foreign investment, work hard, and pull the European economy out of the mud. |
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