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Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerat
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe, LosSeoul. A colleague and good friend in my department where I am is Lebanese. We often play backgammon and have tea and talk academic politics. Wink
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NovaKart



Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:
NovaKart wrote:
LosSeoul wrote:
Yeah and there was a sizable Palestinian population in what is now Israel...
People will always use politics to get what they want or impose there views on others, whatever. Politics are Politics. I lived in Lebanon for a long time. Enough to see a war or two first hand and work directly with people affected the most. In reality it's a horrible situation that sadly most people will never fully realize because they can't get passed the politics.

As for Iran being a different situation or less "fanatical" than Arabs. In my experience fanaticism is equally common across the bored, common as in it makes up the vast minority of people. Arab, Muslim "fanaticism" does however constantly receive the most exposure. Ironically the Jews living in Iran are living not in a secular state like Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan or Syria, but rather in an openly Islamic State.


I've never claimed that I agree with Israel's actions with the Palestinians and Lebanon. What I'm saying is that it doesn't justify the fanatical hatred so many Muslims and especially Arabs have against all Jews.

I can only speak for my own experiences. I have known many Iranians and many Arabs and personally I've found Arabs to generally be more fanatical than Iranians. That doesn't mean every Arab I've met has been fanatical.


How many Palestinians and Jews do you know? There are so many Jews who are also fanatical and hate Arabs, and that's why there have been signs spray painted, "Arabs to the gas chamber" in Israel. Don't tell me the Arabs spray painted it themselves. I remember reading about a right wing Jew who found himself really liking a Palestinian man who was at a hospital and volunteering to help people there and reach out to them and support them. His own daughter was handicapped due to a bomb dropped near his family.

Yet, he still reached out to Jews, and, yes, he was a Palestinian. The right wing Jew said he was taught that all Arabs are out to kill them. Obviously, that's fanatacism to teach that every single Arab is out to fight you and kill you in Palestine-Israel. He said that he was living, in a way, a fantasy world. He realized that this was not true for the Israelis.

The Iranians don't have Persians under occupation by Israel. The Arabs do. I would not say it's okay for some Arabs to hate all Jews and some do, but plenty of Jews feel the same way. In polls conducted in Israel,
the Arab-Israelis seemed more likely to not mind living next to Jews whereas the Jews didn't want to live next to them.

I remember communicating with an Arab-Israeli who was a member of the Greek Catholic church (Melkite), and she told me how people often would tell her to leave the country and go abroad. There is plenty of racism and hatred for all Arabs, my friend, but you don't care to see it.

You are engaging in something you accuse Arabs of. Read what you wrote. You said that Arabs hate all Jews. You are saying all Arabs think that way by saying that. I guess Sadat hated the Jews but wanted a peace treaty? That doesn't make sense. There is a woman who lost a son in war (an Israeli woman) who adopted spiritually a Palestinian man who lost his brother. She is an Israeli, he is a Palestinian. He loves her like she is his mother.

I disagree with the persons who said it sucked to be a Jew in an Arabic country before and after the creation of Israel. That's not what an Iraqi Jewish man who was very old told me. It wasn't true for him. It wasn't true for the Egyptian Jewish mother of one of my best friends. It sucked afterwards. I think what happened to Arab speaking Jews was tragic, but to imply that it sucked for the Jews all over isn't quite true since Jews at one time were even immigrating to Egypt. This is true. Even Ashkenazi Jews from Europe immigrated there.

Ytuque, talks about events in 1941. That's legitimate in being before 1948.
By that time, Jews were flooding into Palestine. Tensions were rising.
Prior to that, relations between Jews and Arabs were generally decent, but then some fanatics assumed that all Jews sided with the Zionist leadership, which was false. That thinking is the same as saying all Arabs hate Jews. Saying every person from a nation thinks a certain way is demonization. Again, in the 1920s and 1930s and 19th century and before many Jews would move safely from place to place and immigrate from Europe. No one stopped them from doing so or discouraged them.


Did I say that all Arabs hate Jews? I'm sure there are some who don't. But Anti-semitism is very widespread among Muslims and especially Arabs. I've met many Arabs and heard this from them. There's also a very widespread belief in conspiracy theories about Jews. That Jews were responsible for 9/11, that the coca-cola logo is secretly anti-Islamic and Jews paid for that, that Pepsi actually means pay every penny to save israel, that Jews control the American government, etc. I knew someone who worked in Oman and he said pretty much every time something goes wrong the Jews are blamed for it (perhaps an exaggeration on his part). An Emirati student once told me that he was raised to hate Jews. I've also found anti-semitism to be very common among Pakistanis.

I've also known many Jews and haven't heard negative things about Arabs from them but I haven't met many Israelis or religious Jews. I wouldn't doubt there would be many Israelis who hate Arabs. But among Arabs, the hatred of Jews goes far beyond those affected by the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

One thing I've noticed about many Arabs is that they often don't like each other much either. I've heard Arabs of certain nationalities express their dislike for other Arabs, the Egyptians come in for the most criticism from what I've heard. I've heard negative things about Palestinians too. So I'm skeptical in thinking all of this hatred for Jews comes only from sympathy for the Palestinians. And why is it that so many Muslims I've met say they don't dislike individual Americans, only the government, but they can't do the same for Jews, even Jews who aren't from Israel.
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LosSeoul wrote:
Quote:


If I am wrong by my assertions that Hezbollah back by its militia control S. Lebanon, prove me wrong by posting a link to a recent story by any reputable news organization that claims S. Lebanon is under control of the Lebanese government and its army.

As we say back in the old neighborhood, put up or shut up.


How about my own pictures of UNIFIL troops at Buab Fatima? How about the fact that I lived in the country? How about the fact that there is a Lebanese Army checkpoint on the other side of the Litani?
That being said...here is my put up and attempt to educate you on your misconception.
Hezbollah is incredibly popular in South Lebanon (Janoub). The Janoub is traditionally the home of Shiite Muslims-Hezbollah is a Shiite orginization-and was freed from Israeli control from Hezbollah in 2000. However Hezbollah does not control the Janoub. Both Lebanese Army and UNIFIL troops are a common sight across the south. Although you will certainly see Hezbollah posters and yellow (each political party in Lebanon has a color, yellow is Hezbollah's) you will probably never see a single Hezbollah soldier, unless of course you area at some kind of rally or function.


Pictures of UN forces are meaningless since they are pretty much powerless.

My original point is Hezbollah is an Islamic militia funded by Iran, has veto power over the government, and has military forces comparable if not superior to the Lebanese army. This makes many Christians, including the ones who I know who still have family there, very nervous. Using Christian villagers as human shields back in 2006 didn't help either.

As to the reason for the veto power, Hezbollah outgunned government supporters which resulted in 81 dead.

I made my comments about Hezbollah controlling S. Lebanon since they still have forces and weapons caches in the area. In addition, there have been incidents where they have run off UNIFIL forces (Italians) and arrested a UNIFIL officer (Polish). UNIFIL and the Lebanese army will not take on Hezbollah.

Hezbollah is popular for fighting the Israelis on Lebanese territory and for the social services it provides. The fact that is has toned down its extreme Islamic views since between its 1st and 2nd manifestos helps. However the fact that it is willing to drag the country into a war and is willing to kill Lebanese doesn't make people very comfortable. I neglected to mention that they have rearmed since 2006, and there is speculation that they are ready to have a go at the Israelis again.

You have a much more positive view of things in Lebanon than the Lebanese who have given up on the country.
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LosSeoul



Joined: 08 Jan 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your original claim was that Hezbollah controls South Lebanon and that you wanted proof that this was not true.

My original point is Hezbollah is an Islamic militia funded by Iran
True. Although technically Hezbollah is refereed to as a Resistance movement, this is what allowed them to keep their arms after the Taif accord.

has veto power over the government, and has military forces comparable if not superior to the Lebanese army.
True, Hezbollah has veto power...as does the rest of the opposition. Why? Well because they are PART of the government. You know how? We voted and certain people chose them to represent us.

This makes many Christians, including the ones who I know who still have family there, very nervous
This is more of a political thing. First of all you say many christians...are you familiar with the Free Patriot Movement? Statistics involving numbers of people are hard to come by in Lebanon, but I believe it is the largest Christian party in Lebanon. FPM is an ally of Hezbollah and part of the March 8th opposition group.

Using Christian villagers as human shields back in 2006 didn't help either.
What villages? Proof?

As to the reason for the veto power, Hezbollah outgunned government supporters which resulted in 81 dead
You make such a sweeping, general statement here. You fail to adress anything else that happened in the 17 month political crisis leading up to what happened in May of 08. This includes sit ins, non violent protests and strikes by both Hezbollah and FPM, one of the two largest christian parties in Lebanon. Violence erupted upon the disablement of Hezbollah's telecommunication network, include al Manar. This was a difficult extremely difficult piece in recent Lebanese history and I'm sure that I am not alone in saying that those of us that we're there and beyond are glad to see that it was largely resolved in Doha.


I made my comments about Hezbollah controlling S. Lebanon since they still have forces and weapons caches in the area. In addition, there have been incidents where they have run off UNIFIL forces (Italians) and arrested a UNIFIL officer (Polish)
I think the issues with the UNIFIL your talking about happened during the Lebanese Civil War?
Like I said in my previous post. When your in the south you will see UNIFIL, you will see the Lebanese Army and you will NOT see Hezbollah. Is the south a stronghold of Hezbollah supporters? Yes of course. Is Hezbollah able to control the south? maybe. Does it control the south? No.

I neglected to mention that they have rearmed since 2006, and there is speculation that they are ready to have a go at the Israelis again.
Yeah they probably have. Good. I herd about this "speculation"...I was there at the Anniversary speech in the Da7yih when Nasrallah spoke on the issue. Like me to "put up"? Ill gladly send you a link to parts of video I shot there, although they are in Arabic. To BRIEFLY summarize the statement that he mad was if Israel invades the Janoub then Hezbollah will attack Haifa and if Israel attacks Beirut Hezbollah will attack Tel Aviv.
If you think that Hezbollah "had a go" at the Israel in 2006 that is another entirely different misunderstanding/issue. I can guarantee you that people within Lebanon had a greater fear of another Israeli invasion and violation of our sovereignty (as they do every week when they fly drones over the border into our airspace) then of Hezbollah having a go.

You have a much more positive view of things in Lebanon than the Lebanese who have given up on the country Sad
I havn't been gone that long...this is usually a symptom of people who left during the civil war and I can not at all blame them.
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Reggie



Joined: 21 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LosSeoul wrote:
Reggie this one if for you:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2292856&l=3b6c36a574&id=553807960

...some israeli left overs from 06


Laughing Thanks for the photo.

I guess we can stop complaining about Iran supplying Hezbollah with weapons now that there's photographic evidence that the Israeli military and American taxpayers have supplied Hezbollah with all of its tanks.
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