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An American looking for an explanation
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SeoulMan99



Joined: 02 Aug 2009
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experiences overseas ( Latin America, Europe, Asia) most non-Americans have gotten on fabulously with Americans. There were occasionally snide remarks towards our government policies, but I never once saw an openly hostile act or attitude towards individual Americans. In fact, and I do not hold this belief, but I have had many Europeans remark to me that they enjoy the company of Americans, yet they have had strange experiences with Canadians. Personally, I have found that most expat-Americans are well informed people, often being quite engaging and more than once they have been the spark of the parties I have attended.

You will find once you get to know Europeans, Australians, etc that once you get past your pre-conceived notions of them being better informed they often are not. That said, when you leave America you are able to see more clearly how much of an insulated soceity we live in as the cultural beacon of the World. I have yet to be to a place where I do not see at the least traces of American cultural domination, for the better or worse. We as Americans must atone for the evil things which our government has done, as other states must also realize that as leading powers in the World their governments do much of the same things, though not as visibly.

Immigrants are better able to adapt in America than anywhere in the World. The Economist had a nice peace on that very subject. Groups tend to be less segragated than in most countries. Growing up I had friends of Hspanic, Asian, African American, Middle Eastern, and European descent, which all lived in the same suburban neighborhood. Foreigners often forget that millions of Americans understand foreign cultures because they have first hand experiences with them, or they are from them themselves.

In contrast though, we have millions of self-described "patriots" and "defenders of freedom" (see the t-baggers) in this country who know no more about other countries than they know the definition of Socialist, which they often spew out with a knee jerk reaction. It is these millions of often right-wing zealots, which I feel elite compared to, and with which I can relate to foreigners ideas of how Americans are.

I have one final thing to say, which I believe is truly representative of everyone in this world. It's 50/50. Half of the people in this World are truly aware of things, and the other half is permanantly out to lunch.

One World
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beercanman



Joined: 16 May 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent post, SeoulMan99. The 50/50 bit sounds a bit generous, as the cynical might say, though I think most people underestimate most people. That's the paradox, if the term applies. Seems to me that most people believe most people are lacking somehow in awareness or decency or whatever. It simply cannot be true. So I'd say it is wiser to give the average Joe or "Ajoeshi" a bit more credit than most might. If 90% think they are somehow better than 90% most of us should have failed school.
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wesharris



Joined: 10 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mc_jc wrote:
Quote:
With respect, certainly in the case of WWII, some Americans like to take far too much credit for 'preserving' freedom. Preserving freedom is much more of a collectivist thing, and it expands beyond the borders of one country. Besides, I'd much rather direct my thanks towards the Russians predominantly in the second world war. If it hadn't been for them, the Nazis would have stormed through the UK, and then westward. With that kind of momentum, it'd be difficult to see the US stopping it, and Americans, just as some so often remind non-Americans, would be speaking German as well.


I'll be the first on this board to say that the US was ill-prepared at the start of WWII. By 1938, the US ranked 8th in equipment, training and readiness after Portugal. Sadly, it took Pearl Harbor to change all that as the US was thrusted into war.

Regarding US policy from the 1870's-1920's.
The US policies during these times were "exploitation without colonization". While Britain and France were gobbling up possessions around the world, the US was mostly showing its economic might (the same way China is now) with little to no regard for the local population. Although America didn't hold any possessions until after the Spanish-American War (which is when congress asked why the US didn't own any foreign territory), we used our economic clout (as well as the Monroe Doctrine) to keep many nations under our sphere of influence. This was not isolated to the US, but was the political climate at the time.

Oh, wesharris forgot to mention Nicaragua in 1930's, Haiti in the 1910's and Venezuela in the 1890's and 1940's.

Not to mention William Walker, who with an army of southern mercenaries attempted to conquer Central America in the 1840's with the goal of turning it into one huge plantation.

But at the same time, France, Spain and the British installed a Austrian cousin of the Hapsburgs in Mexico and garrisoned thousands of French and Spanish troops there.


Regarding US foreign policy from the late-1940's- 1990
The US was fighting the Cold War. The world was pretty much a chess game with each nation a pawn for both the US and the Soviet Union. Those nations under each sphere of influence were kept in check, sometimes militarily.
As mentioned, we supported a coup against Prime Minister Mossadaq in Iran in 1953, the Russians did the same thing in Hungary in 1956- but the uprising in Hungary was bloodily put down while the arrest of Mossadeq was relatively bloodless and with the full backing of the Iranian religious establishment at the time (he wanted to push Iran to be even more secular than what the Shah wanted).
The CIA supported the coup in Chile that ushered in the military government of Augusto Pinochet in 1973. The Soviets supported the coups in Ethiopia in 1975 that virtually wiped out the entire royal family there as well as supported the Cuban military in cursions in Ethiopia, Mozambique, Angola and Cuban assistance to the Libyans in Chad in the 1980's. Not to mention the unilateral Soviet invasion of Afghanistan that killed over a million civilians for the sake of propping up a very unpopular leftist regime there.

What alot of people fail to understand is that US policy was relative to the political climate during certain periods in history.

I'm still not seeing any of the negative there, sorry.
_+_+
Wes
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mc_jc



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well I doubt they would have been able to sustain an occupation of the North. As it turns out they couldn't even defend themselves.


Probably true in the long term. But not every American (especially at the start of the Civil War) believed in freeing the slaves. Lincoln himself only started to use the slave issue to garner support of the wealthy abolitionists. There were anti-slave, anti-immigrant riots in New York, Boston and other Union cities where poor citizens were unable to pay their way out of conscription.
Some even had sympathies with the Confederacy, though they didn't make their feelings known until after the war.

Quote:
I'm still not seeing any of the negative there, sorry.
That's ok. Not everyone, especially those with no grasp of history, could see where I was going with this.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeoulMan99 wrote:
We as Americans must atone for the evil things which our government has done


I don't agree with this. The American gov't is a Leviathan, and individual Americans cannot be saddled with the 'evil' things it has done. Individual Americans should act like moral human beings, however.
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mc_jc



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Individual Americans should act like moral human beings, however.


What is your definition of "morality"?
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kinerry



Joined: 01 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mc_jc wrote:
Quote:
Individual Americans should act like moral human beings, however.


What is your definition of "morality"?


I was gonna say the same thing, because according to most of the mid-east, our "western" ideas are almost all "immoral".
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vincentmiser



Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Location: Everywhere

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my three best friends is American.

He knows I don't enjoy US citizens in general, and he says pretty much the same thing mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread.
He also says the US is a shambles. Government is in the dump, the average Joe doesn't know what power they have but they are too lazy and couldn't give a poop.

I give everyone a fair chance of becoming a friend of mine (not that I'm saying it's a major privelege) but I would have to say that most of the Americans I have met have not been memorable. This friend of mine was INSTANTLY someone I wanted to get to know. He is an amazing guy who has open eyes and an active mind. And he has a sense of 'honour' ie: 'true to his word', something sadly lacking in many people internationally nowadays.

I absolutely devour expose' documentaries like Food Inc, Obama Deception etc because I love to see people spitting out the truth about all the **** going on over there.

Enough. To quote someone:
I am not a racist. I hate everyone equally.
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DosEquisXX



Joined: 04 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the foreigners, let alone the Koreans, thought I was from Canada.

So I got to hear the attacks on America and how much it sucks. I let the ignorance slide though. They don't know any better and nothing I do will get them to know any better.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
This may be your first time out of Cal and/or your first time living abroad. In my view, you picked a pretty poor choice in South Korea.

You will encounter a lot of obnoxious, belligerent, alcoholic Canadians fleeing perpetual unemployment or underemployment and the lifestyles of those who forever live in their parents' basement. You will encounter the ugliest the other English-speaking nations have to offer as well. I spent time there and experienced what you are experiencing. Pettiness upon pettiness. AntiAmerican politics and rants at every party and in every bar, accompanied, of course, by pretensions to Canadian, British, Australian, New Zealand superiority -- but more Canadian than anything else. Unending resentment against Americans, whom they scapegoat for everything.

On the other hand, while living in the Brazilian Northeast, I encountered no Canadians or other Commonwealth job-seekers. I only knew other Americans and British, a very friendly and enjoyable group of people interested in Brazil and Latin America. Same for the other South American countries in which I lived -- but for the one Canadian I encountered in Chile. She was about 300 lbs., had been on "employment insurance" (nice euphemism, no?) for years, and wanted to start a new life. So why not teach English abroad? She took a course, had her stomache stappled, then came to Chile, and spent her off-hours baking cakes and cookies, and eating them, and complaining about how Chilean girls wore too-short miniskirts. Imagine that.

Also, the ones in South Korea are not really interested in South Korea, at least not the typical ones. They are primarily interested in money and supposedly easy local women.

My advice to you would be to choose another country when going out into the world; South Korea is a pretty ugly place for an American to go exploring. You may take it or leave it, of course.


You mean, for all of your time on this board, you don't actually live in Korea or have anything to do with the place????


----------------------------------------------------------------

OP, there are going to be some people who hate for whatever reason - you're American, you're Asian, you're white, you're educated, you're rich, you're poor.

There's little you can do about other than be yourself, and by doing so, perhaps dispel some of those misconceptions.
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reactionary



Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Location: korreia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vincentmiser wrote:


I absolutely devour expose' documentaries like Food Inc, Obama Deception etc because I love to see people spitting out the truth about all the **** going on over there.

Enough. To quote someone:
I am not a racist. I hate everyone equally.


I like those documentaries also. But what it comes down to is, "let who who has not sinned cast the first stone." A lot of what those documentaries expose (like America's food mill), well, great, but what does your country do? What does Korea do? etc.

Maybe America is just a more open society where there are people with the will and ability to expose the dark side of things. Where are they in other countries?
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:


You mean, for all of your time on this board, you don't actually live in Korea or have anything to do with the place????



FYI, that's the case for a number of frequent posters on the Current Events forum. I think we all lived there at some point, but have moved elsewhere since then.
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.38 Special



Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In contrast though, we have millions of self-described "patriots" and "defenders of freedom" (see the t-baggers) in this country who know no more about other countries than they know the definition of Socialist, which they often spew out with a knee jerk reaction. It is these millions of often right-wing zealots, which I feel elite compared to, and with which I can relate to foreigners ideas of how Americans are.


Okay SeoulMan, I'll see your bigotry and raise you an inquiry.

1. How does identifying oneself as patriotic or as civil defense correlate to interest in international affairs, history, and law?

2. Define Socialist. Then look it up in a dictionary. Then look for the historical usage of the word. There is more than one way to use the word Socialist and everyone abuses it, not those scary "other" people, the "rednecks."

3. You feel better than "right-wing zealots" in what way? In what way can you possibly identify yourself as superior to a non-associated demographic that ascribes to an abstract politically ideology, but are in no other way related? Shall your next statement be that you feel superior to poor people because they cannot afford to educate themselves? Or do you feel superior to rich people because you've had to work and experience life? How about Blacks, Jews, and Somoans? As long as we are writing personal manifestoes of a superior race, we really ought to include as many groups as we can.

After all, we don't want our bigotry to be inconsistent, do we? The inferior races might feel upset if we leave them out.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP, don't worry about it. It is what it is.
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Wishmaster



Joined: 06 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a Canadian co-worker who was like the third Rougeau Brother. He didn't wave the mini American flag, but he always made a snide remark that reminded me of them. I would have loved to have put that punk in a swinging neckbreaker.
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