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Has the US become ungovernable?
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:40 pm    Post subject: Has the US become ungovernable? Reply with quote

James Fallows has a terrific piece about 'How America Can Rise Again' full of optimistic views: "How should we feel? I spoke with historians and politicians, soldiers and ministers, civil engineers and broadcast executives and high-tech researchers. Overall, the news they gave was heartening�and alarming, too. Most of the things that worry Americans aren�t really that serious, especially those that involve �falling behind� anyone else." But his concluding section about government is much more pessimistic:

"I started out this process uncertain; I ended up convinced. America the society is in fine shape! America the polity most certainly is not. Over the past half century, both parties have helped cause this predicament�Democrats by unintentionally giving governmental efforts a bad name in the 1960s and �70s, Republicans by deliberately doing so from the Reagan era onward. At the moment, Republicans are objectively the more nihilistic, equating public anger with the sentiment that �their� America has been taken away and defining both political and substantive success as stopping the administration�s plans. As a partisan tactic, this could make sense; for the country, it�s one more sign of dysfunction, and of the near-impossibility of addressing problems that require truly public efforts to solve. Part of the mind-set of pre-Communist China was the rage and frustration of a great people let down by feckless rulers. Whatever is wrong with today�s Communist leadership, it is widely seen as pulling the country nearer to its full potential rather than pushing it away. America is not going to have a Communist revolution nor endure �100 Years of Humiliation,� as Imperial China did. But we could use more anger about the fact that the gap between our potential and our reality is opening up, not closing.
What are the choices? Logically they come down to these, starting with the most fanciful:

*We could hope for an enlightened military coup, or some other deus ex machina by the right kind of tyrants.

*We could hope to change the basic nature of our democracy, so it fits the times as our other institutions do�In principle, the United States could call for a new constitutional convention, to reconsider all the rules.

*We might hope for another Sputnik moment�to be precise, an event frightening enough to stimulate national action without posing a real threat. That kind of �hope� hardly constitutes a plan.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201001/american-decline

Andrew Sullivan followed that up with this: 'Barack Obama locked in dirty war with the right', focusing on the current political scene.

"Obama�s promise was that he would try to end this culture war. My view is that � to great dismay among his own partisan base � he has largely fulfilled that promise. He went to dinner with conservative journalists before he schmoozed the liberal ones; he spent more time on Capitol Hill with Republicans in his first few months than Bush ever had; he asked the evangelical Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration; he avoided abortion and gay rights issues; he refused to investigate, let alone prosecute, the war crimes of his predecessor; and he has ramped up the war in Afghanistan. He has cut taxes and refused to nationalise the banks.

But for all this, he is the target of almost relentless and extreme opposition, painting him as the most radical and extremist anti-American ever in the Oval Office. And with a Senate that requires a 60-40 majority to get anything done, that makes his promises very hard to keep. When Europeans wonder if America is ungovernable, this polarisation is the critical thing to keep in mind. Obama�s gamble is therefore to outlast this reaction, to refuse to take the bait for total political warfare at home, and to enact as much as he can as quickly as he can in case the natural upswing of an opposition in a depressed economy renders his congressional majority moot by next November."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/01/ungovernable.html#more

Like Fallows mentioned, there was an opportunity right after 9/11 when the country was united, for ambitious national reform and renewal-- investment in infrastructure, renewable energy and entitlement program reform under conservative leadership.

Now it's the liberals' turn, but they are being stymied by the structure of the political system, notably the unrepresentative Senate.

Conservatives are infected by an anti-government allergy. Is it time for the liberals to give up on government as well? When the whole political class is disaffected then there is the possibility of overthrowing the whole thing. In short, is it time to scrap the Constitution?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scrap the Constitution? How about a revision, Ya-Ta? I mean, jeez, scrap the Constitution?

The biggest problem we have isn't even in the Constitution, and that's the Senate filibuster/cloture rule.

And we could abolish the House of Lords, er, the Senate with a Constitutional amendment.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
The biggest problem we have isn't even in the Constitution, and that's the Senate filibuster/cloture rule.


I'd say the biggest problem we have is people who don't seem to understand the structure of the country's government. See below. By the way, I suggest you check out Article I, Section 5, of the Constitution itself.

Quote:
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings


Quote:
And we could abolish the House of Lords, er, the Senate with a Constitutional amendment.


Lords? That comment makes it look as though you are unaware that Senators are elected for terms of six years by the people of their state. It also makes it seem as though you have no idea of what the House of Lords actually is, what it does, and what it's powers are.


Last edited by CentralCali on Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Scrap the Constitution? How about a revision, Ya-Ta? I mean, jeez, scrap the Constitution?

The biggest problem we have isn't even in the Constitution, and that's the Senate filibuster/cloture rule.

And we could abolish the House of Lords, er, the Senate with a Constitutional amendment.


The Articles of Confederation were better?
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Moldy Rutabaga



Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting article and issues.

One option which wasn't listed, and which I think is more probable, is that state and local governments will begin to become more powerful to compensate for the power paralysis in Washington. I was shocked a few years ago to read that Schwarzenegger was treated more importantly by the Chinese than W. Bush was while on a visit (because he might beat everyone up or use a laser machine gun?). On many issues such as health care and going green, as well as conservative issues, many states have given up on Washington and enacted local legislation.

If we extrapolate into the future, one possibility which I think is strong is a much less decentralized North America, with perhaps economic and political zones of cooperation, with only a federal defense and currency and limited roles otherwise. Something to think about.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
Kuros wrote:
The biggest problem we have isn't even in the Constitution, and that's the Senate filibuster/cloture rule.


I'd say the biggest problem we have is people who don't seem to understand the structure of the country's government. See below. By the way, I suggest you check out Article I, Section 5, of the Constitution itself.

Quote:
Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings


One can understand the structure of the country's government while simultaneously feeling it needs modification. Filibusters have become abusive, and they need to be delt with.
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone who thinks the US Senate is the US House of Lords is quite mistaken. And there's still plenty of debate about the merits or lack thereof for filibusters.
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Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Scrap the Constitution? How about a revision, Ya-Ta? I mean, jeez, scrap the Constitution?

The biggest problem we have isn't even in the Constitution, and that's the Senate filibuster/cloture rule.

And we could abolish the House of Lords, er, the Senate with a Constitutional amendment.


Cloture is flat out ridiculous. Fallows had a real good article about that too. The man has written some real good stuff.
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Moldy Rutabaga



Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another possible argument for states assuming some of the federal government's role is that modifications to the constitution would also have to be debated and passed by congress and the senate. Amendments to stop the gridlock would have to be passed by... gridlocked bodies. These sorts of constitutional changes would be unlikely if even small bills can't reach consensus from both parties.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
Anyone who thinks the US Senate is the US House of Lords is quite mistaken. And there's still plenty of debate about the merits or lack thereof for filibusters.


I think his comparison was not meant to be literal, Cali.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Scrap the Constitution? How about a revision, Ya-Ta? I mean, jeez, scrap the Constitution?

The biggest problem we have isn't even in the Constitution, and that's the Senate filibuster/cloture rule.

And we could abolish the House of Lords, er, the Senate with a Constitutional amendment.


As Moldy mentioned above, how do gridlocked institutions reform themselves? The Senate and Electoral College are seriously weighted in favor of the smaller states which can easily block any change that would weaken their influence (although I don't know that anyone has really tried to see what would happen).

While the filibuster/cloture thing is a serious problem, it is a newish problem. I think more fundamental is the extent of gerrymandering safe districts. Districts with more balance would produce more centrist representatives (in the House).

Our system is a republican system with elements of democracy. The theory is that democracy is more dangerous and unstable than republicanism. That argument rests on the idea that there is a class of people who are more enlightened and responsible than the general mass of people. I have never actually met one of these more enlightened people myself. I suppose Senators McConnell and Bunning of Kentucky are sterling examples. I know for a fact that Sen. Charles 'pull the plug on grandma' Grassley of Iowa is one. Confused
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
CentralCali wrote:
Anyone who thinks the US Senate is the US House of Lords is quite mistaken. And there's still plenty of debate about the merits or lack thereof for filibusters.


I think his comparison was not meant to be literal, Cali.


It certainly wasn't literal. The clue there might've been the 'er, . . .' . Centralcali doesn't contribute to much to this forum except personal attacks. Anyway, as Fallows would point out, the filibuster/cloture isn't Constitutionally protected, and thus could be easily gotten rid of.

Ya-Ta Boy wrote:
While the filibuster/cloture thing is a serious problem, it is a newish problem. I think more fundamental is the extent of gerrymandering safe districts. Districts with more balance would produce more centrist representatives (in the House).


Yes, gerrymandering is another real big problem.

Still, I look at other parliamentary systems, and I don't see anything like a Senate. I mean, you're right, how do gridlocked institutions reform themselves? But a Constitutional Convention? I just fear we'd get such stupid crap written into the new version.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But a Constitutional Convention? I just fear we'd get such stupid crap written into the new version.


The majority of the Founders gathered because they wanted a stronger central government. Those who showed up not with that idea in mind soon went back home. So what we had was a group of (roughly) like-minded men working toward a common goal. THAT will never happen again. A modern Constitutional Convention would be a horror.

I totally agree that 'we'd get such stupid crap written into the new version'--every advocacy group in the country would crawl out from under its rock to insist its current policy be written into the document and we'd end up with a travesty every bit as embarrassing and silly as that EU thing.

I'm firmly convinced no convention will never ever happen again.

Back to your filibuster point: The majority party can rewrite the rules at the beginning of the next session (next January). The Republic may be doomed by then.
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VanIslander



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Has the US become ungovernable? Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
*We could hope for an enlightened military coup, or some other deus ex machina by the right kind of tyrants.

Shocked *beep* that
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: Has the US become ungovernable? Reply with quote

VanIslander wrote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
*We could hope for an enlightened military coup, or some other deus ex machina by the right kind of tyrants.

Shocked *beep* that


Call me overly sensitive, but I do wish people would learn to distinguish between what is quoted material and what I actually say.

That being said, I'm not convinced people give the idea of an enlightened military dictatorship a fair hearing. Were Ollie Cromwell and Napoleon Bonaparte really all that bad? Park Chung-Hee? Not to mention all the generals who made themselves king...

"That word--"dictator"--had been in the air for weeks, endorsed vaguely as a remedy for the Depression by establishment figures ranging from the owners of the New York Daily News, the nation's largest circulation newspaper, to Walter Lippmann, the eminent columnist who spoke for the American political elite. "The situation is critical, Franklin. You may have no alternative but to assume dictatorial powers," Lippmann had told FDR during a visit to Warm Springs on February 1, before the crisis escalated. Alfred E. Smith, the Democratic nominee for president in 1928, recalled with some exaggeration that "during the World War we wrapped the Constitution in a piece of paper, put it on the shelf and left it there until the war was over." The Depression, Smith concluded, was a similar "state of war." Even Eleanor Roosevelt, more liberal than her husband, privately suggested that a "benevolent dictator" might be what the country needed. The vague idea was not a police state but deference to a strong leader unfettered by Congress or the other inconveniences of democracy. Amid the crisis, the specifics didn't go beyond more faith in government by fiat.

Within a few years, "dictator" would carry sinister tones, but--hard as it is to believe now--the word had a reassuring ring that season. So did "storm troopers," used by one admiring author to describe foot soldiers of the early New Deal, and "concentration camps," a generic term routinely applied to the work camps of the Civilian Conservation Corps that would be established by summer across the country. After all, the Italian Fascist Benito Mussolini, in power for a decade, had ginned up the Italian economy and was popular with everyone from Winston Churchill to Will Rogers to Lowell Thomas, America's most influential broadcaster. "If ever this country needed a Mussolini, it needs one now," said Senator David Reed of Pennsylvania, outgoing President Hoover's closest friend on Capitol Hill. The speech draft prepared for FDR brought to mind Mussolini addressing his black-shirt followers, many of whom were demobilized veterans who joined Il Duce's private army.

Roosevelt came to office just as the appetite for strong leadership seemed to be surging worldwide...

The most powerful American publisher, William Randolph Hearst, seemed to favor dictatorship. The Hearst empire extended to Hollywood, where Hearst that winter had personally supervised the filming of an upcoming hit movie called Gabriel Over the White House that was meant to instruct FDR and prepare the public for a dictatorship. The movie's hero is a president played by Walter Huston who dissolves Congress, creates an army of unemployed, and lines up his enemies before a firing squad. FDR not only saw an advance screening of the film, he offered ideas for script rewrites and wrote Hearst from the White House that he thought it would help the country.

"There was a thunder in the air as whn the Fascisti marched upon Rome," wrote one journalist close to the Roosevelt camp, of the fevered climate that chilly March weekend...

FDR knew the consequences of failing to seize the day. A visitor--unidentified in the press--came to him not long after the Inauguration and told him, "Mr. President, if your program succeeds, you'll be the greatest president in American history. If it fails, you will be the worst one." "If it fails," the new president replied, "I'll be the last one."

This sounds melodramatic to Americans in the 21st century, when freedom is flourishing in so many parts of the world. But during the 1930s, democracy was on the run, discredited even by subtle minds as a hopelessly cumbersome way to meet the challenges of the modern age. At the time, history offered little precedent for a leader taking power amidst a severe military or economic crisis without seizing more authority for himself. The few republics ever established--from ancient times to modern Europe--had eventually bent before such demands...

But on March 5, 1933, an astonishing thing happened--or more precisely, did not happen. The draft of that American Legion radio address was destined not for the ears of millions of veterans and other Americans, but for nothing more than the speech files of the Roosevelt Library, where it lay unexamined for more than seventy years. The five-minute speech that FDR delivered that night built on the military tone of the Inaugural. He argued for "sacrifice and devotion" of wartime and noted it was "a mistake to assume that the virtues of war differ from the virtues of peace." But there was no hint of a private army.

No one knows who wrote the unused draft or why FDR discarded the suggested additions, but something inside the man kept him from moving in an extraconstitutional direction. Some combination of personal and democratic conviction set him on a different course, at once more traditional and bold. This most pragmatic of modern American presidents sensed the unworkable nature of untrammeled power, even in the hands of the only person he completely trusted--himself.

In the days ahead, FDR moved in the opposite direction, passing the word on Capitol Hill that he did not believe in a constitutional dictatorship and asking his friend Felix Frankfurter to tell Lippmann to stop hawking dictatorship and disrespect of Congress in his columns. It was not as if Roosevelt was letting the cup pass; for the next twelve years, he would fully exploit the authority of the presidency, sometimes over-reaching to the point where his enemies accused him of becoming a dictator. He would flirt with fascistic (or at least corporatist) ideas like the National Recovery Administration and in 1937 try to pack the Supreme Court. But even then, he would do so in the context of democracy, without private armies or government-by-decree. Even at his worst, he would eventually submit his schemes for the approval of Congress. Instead of coercion, he chose persuasion; instead of drawing the sword, he would draw on his own character and political instincts. He would draw, too, on the subconscious metaphor of his own physical condition. Although it was only rarely mentioned in the press, the American people knew at the time that he had polio (though not the extent of his disability) and it bound them to him in ways that were no less powerful for being unspoken: If he could rise from his paralysis, then so could they." (The Defining Moment, Jonathan Alter pp. 6-Cool

Well, this is not 1933. Maybe people should reconsider a dictatorship this time around. Maybe the ancient Romans were right and FDR was wrong to pass up the chance to establish a constitutional dictatorship for times of crisis.
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