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US just doesn't get it about motivation for suicide attacks
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a "reason" people blow themselves up and kill others? How enlightening.

America doesn't give a rats ass about a "reason" . It is Us vs Them and that's the problem. A dehumanization of a vast swath of the world. Until this dagger goes through the heart of each senator, congressman and wine sniffer, yacht buyer in America, ain't gonna mean one rat's ass difference if they "got" a reason. We'll simple say, like any teach of old, "doesn't matter, I'm boss here. Listen to your elders.". Condescending and very ethnocentric.

George Washington is dead. But he's got sons.

'nough said. Now back to my regularly scheduled episode of Rev. Sharpton.

DD
http://eflclassroom.com
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beck's



Joined: 02 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want motivation you just need to listen to what the jihadists are saying and take them at their word. They want to destabalize regimes, carve them out until they are husks and then establish Sharia law in the new and enlarged caliphate.

Islamism is a violent, imperialistic ideology wrapped up in a religion to the point where it's almost impossible to tell where the political ideology leaves and the religion begins. Many Saudi financed mosques around the world serve as clearing grounds and base camps for jihad.

The little skirmishes in Iraq and Afhanistan are not the real front lines. The front line is in Europe with it's feeble and aging population lving on the last dregs of the welfare state.
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
Islamism is a violent, imperialistic ideology wrapped up in a religion to the point where it's almost impossible to tell where the political ideology leaves and the religion begins. Many Saudi financed mosques around the world serve as clearing grounds and base camps for jihad.


I really, really pity you. You have such blinders. It's sad that you don't see this is on both sides/counts - ideology. (and I won't outline the "camps" and "recruitment" of the other side. You are blind to it). Never been an army that hasn't used this, and the men stepping, stepping, stepping, even sometimes goosestepping towards a grandeur which is death.

Take off the blinders.

Auden said it best. Takes someone on the outside of the culture to see it.
O What is that Sound. http://odeo.com/episodes/23517125-O-What-is-that-Sound-W-H-Auden-audio-of-poem
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Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conrad2 wrote:
Old Gil wrote:
The US presence in the Middle East and its support for Israel is why we have terrorist attacks. If you look at every other terrorist act in teh world, it's neighbors or locals attacking neighbors or locals. India, Bali, Spain, London, the list goes on and on. They are attacks carried out by locals or regional neighbors in the locality or region where they live.

The US is special b/c our foreign policy is especially intrusive, and necessarily so.


The latest attack was carried out by a Nigerian. Nigeria is not in the Middle East. In Bali, Indonesians attacked Australians mainly. Indonesia is not in the Middle East.


Yes. This supports my original point.
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beck's



Joined: 02 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Deubel, two reallys in the pity. You really, really pity me. Nice hyperbole.

Let me throw another idea at you. We are teaching and writing in English because a small island off the coast of Europe solved the problem of the massive infant mortality rate sometime in the early 19th century. At that time the English population expanded but, more importantly, the English population was a young one. Young populations are expansive. Young people have energy and are full of piss and vinegar. They are willing to risk and to fight.

It just happens that when these English people expanded into the world they took with them the seeds of some democratic ideas, parliamentary government and common law to name a few. This young, surging population took these things into the world and we are benefiting by them today.

Fast forward to today. The fastest growing, the youngest populations on the planet are Muslim. The average age in Gaza, for example, is 15. The birthrate in Muslim countries is huge. They are now the young, surging population that is expanding into the world. They now have the piss and vinegar necessary to take on the old decaying empires.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old Gil wrote:
conrad2 wrote:
Old Gil wrote:
The US presence in the Middle East and its support for Israel is why we have terrorist attacks. If you look at every other terrorist act in teh world, it's neighbors or locals attacking neighbors or locals. India, Bali, Spain, London, the list goes on and on. They are attacks carried out by locals or regional neighbors in the locality or region where they live.

The US is special b/c our foreign policy is especially intrusive, and necessarily so.


The latest attack was carried out by a Nigerian. Nigeria is not in the Middle East. In Bali, Indonesians attacked Australians mainly. Indonesia is not in the Middle East.


Yes. This supports my original point.


What has to be recognized here is that for some Muslims, rightly or wrongly, their religion has replaced the nation-state as their primary object of loyalty. These types of people are thus prone to regard an attack by "infidels" on a Muslim nation the way most of us would regard an attack on our homelands.

I'm not saying that these Muslims are right to view their religion in this manner, as it's certainly quite foreign to my way of thinking. (Even when I was growing up Catholic, we didn't hear sermons at Mass about how Indonesia was slaughtering Catholics in East Timor.) Nevertheless, it IS how some of them regard it, and that has to be taken into account as a reality when examining the motivation behind terrorist attacks.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At that time the English population expanded but, more importantly, the English population was a young one. Young populations are expansive. Young people have energy and are full of piss and vinegar. They are willing to risk and to fight.

It just happens that when these English people expanded into the world they took with them the seeds of some democratic ideas, parliamentary government and common law to name a few. This young, surging population took these things into the world and we are benefiting by them today.


But England was a highly developed capitalist economy. Global Islam is nothing of the sort. There's a reason why Muslim extremists are trying to blow up airplanes with home-made bombs and hack up Danish cartoonists with axes, rather than sending ships and armies around the world to conquer territory and establish governments. They have neither the economic nor the military backing to do anything like the latter.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
Quote:
At that time the English population expanded but, more importantly, the English population was a young one. Young populations are expansive. Young people have energy and are full of piss and vinegar. They are willing to risk and to fight.

It just happens that when these English people expanded into the world they took with them the seeds of some democratic ideas, parliamentary government and common law to name a few. This young, surging population took these things into the world and we are benefiting by them today.


But England was a highly developed capitalist economy. Global Islam is nothing of the sort. There's a reason why Muslim extremists are trying to blow up airplanes with home-made bombs and hack up Danish cartoonists with axes, rather than sending ships and armies around the world to conquer territory and establish governments. They have neither the economic nor the military backing to do anything like the latter.


Nor the civilizational ability to create from scratch the technology to battle us. They need our planes to take down our buildings. Without us, a plane wouldn't exist. They'd know only birds.
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Reggie



Joined: 21 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
Without us, a plane wouldn't exist.


Without Canadians? You guys are in the same boat as the Muslims. Razz
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure. Canadians.

muslims, a billion people, have earned 2 Nobel prizes in the sciences. Canadians, 32 million people, have earned 10.
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ytuque



Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Location: I drink therefore I am!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on my travels and reading, I offer these possibilities:

1. The Koran inspires jihad.
2. Muslims dream of a caliphate and recreation of Al-Andalus which is an Islamic version of Shangrila or Camelot.
3. They believe in this narrative that America and the west are waging war against the peaceful muslims, and the Jews have stolen Arab lands.
4. The west is to blame for the backwards state of the Islamic world.
5. Any action taken by muslims is justified or excusable because it's a reaction to a perceived wrong somewhere in the world.
6. All muslims are part of a global islamic community (ummah) which explains why some perceived wrong in one part of the world can lead to a terrorist act on the other side of the world by an individual or group of different nationality and ethnicity.
7. Finally, the koran is taken to be the literal word of god, and Mohammad is considered the ultimate role model. So essentially, muslims are locked into place by a 7th century text with a 7th century Arab/Bedouin warlord role model.


Last edited by ytuque on Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Old Gil



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:




What has to be recognized here is that for some Muslims, rightly or wrongly, their religion has replaced the nation-state as their primary object of loyalty. These types of people are thus prone to regard an attack by "infidels" on a Muslim nation the way most of us would regard an attack on our homelands.



Yes. I think the evocation of the Caliphate by religious leaders is incredibly self serving but it seems to have struck a chord. It's bunk, but it exists and we should be aware of its effect on the Muslim world.
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Reggie



Joined: 21 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
Without us, a plane wouldn't exist.

Sure. Canadians.

muslims, a billion people, have earned 2 Nobel prizes in the sciences. Canadians, 32 million people, have earned 10.


Which Canadian invented the airplane? Laughing Are you going to take credit for the Korean turtle ship too? Very Happy
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