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proustme
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Location: Nowon-gu
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 Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Codes |
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U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes
Pentagon Supplier for Rifle Sights Says It Has 'Always' Added New Testament References
Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.
The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.
U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.
One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.
Full article: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=2 |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Big deal.
2COR4:6 means nothing. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
Big deal.
2COR4:6 means nothing. |
I was under the impression that the criticism was that there are Biblical quotes at all on our military's weaponry, rather than that what said Bible quotes said was specifically objectionable.
If individual soldiers want to believe in religious nonsense, that's fine, but it's not something that should be endorsed by any part of our government, including the military.
Let's get real here. If it was material from the Qur'an inscribed on these rifles conservatives would be having a fit. Christian material isn't any more reasonable. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Let's get real here. If it was material from the Qur'an inscribed on these rifles conservatives would be having a fit. Christian material isn't any more reasonable. |
I'd love to see you make an establishment of religion argument here, Fox. I doubt you will. (I'm guessing) you're reasonable enough to know it'd fail. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's great! It shows that the US is on God's side and will conquer those who dare attack on the side of false gods and prophets.
Also, I liked Pulp Fiction. "I walk through the valley..." then *blam blam!* |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd say that to prove this is a case of establishment of religion (or endorsing a particular faith), one would have to show that the procurement personnel involved were aware that the manufacturer engaged in the practice at issue. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Let's get real here. If it was material from the Qur'an inscribed on these rifles conservatives would be having a fit. Christian material isn't any more reasonable. |
I'd love to see you make an establishment of religion argument here, Fox. I doubt you will. (I'm guessing) you're reasonable enough to know it'd fail. |
I don't think we need to go there, especially since I don't think it's part of some governmental plan. Rather, I think this is just a bad idea from every possible perspective.
1) It's at least somewhat disrespectful to any non-Christian soldier who is being issued these weapons.
2) It is at least somewhat hypocritical given material from other religions would never be accepted in this way.
3) It's just one more thing associating Christianity with the actions of our military.
I see reasons to keep this nonsense off of our military's weapons, and no reason for it to be there. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Let's get real here. If it was material from the Qur'an inscribed on these rifles conservatives would be having a fit. Christian material isn't any more reasonable. |
I'd love to see you make an establishment of religion argument here, Fox. I doubt you will. (I'm guessing) you're reasonable enough to know it'd fail. |
I don't think we need to go there, especially since I don't think it's part of some governmental plan. Rather, I think this is just a bad idea from every possible perspective.
1) It's at least somewhat disrespectful to any non-Christian soldier who is being issued these weapons.
2) It is at least somewhat hypocritical given material from other religions would never be accepted in this way.
3) It's just one more thing associating Christianity with the actions of our military.
I see reasons to keep this nonsense off of our military's weapons, and no reason for it to be there. |
Okay, but I'd say on the other side these weigh towards the practice:
4) It's a long-standing tradition that is only now being challenged
5) It's kind of cool, in that there's a deep hidden cultural meaning in something built into something as mechanical as a gun sight
Its kind of awesome that the verses all have to do with light. All I know is that if becomes a controversy, the gun-sight manufacturers win. I also think the appeal to long-standing tradition is aimed right at Justice Breyer in case someone does make a lawsuit out of this. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Let's get real here. If it was material from the Qur'an inscribed on these rifles conservatives would be having a fit. Christian material isn't any more reasonable. |
I'd love to see you make an establishment of religion argument here, Fox. I doubt you will. (I'm guessing) you're reasonable enough to know it'd fail. |
I don't think we need to go there, especially since I don't think it's part of some governmental plan. Rather, I think this is just a bad idea from every possible perspective.
1) It's at least somewhat disrespectful to any non-Christian soldier who is being issued these weapons.
2) It is at least somewhat hypocritical given material from other religions would never be accepted in this way.
3) It's just one more thing associating Christianity with the actions of our military.
I see reasons to keep this nonsense off of our military's weapons, and no reason for it to be there. |
Okay, but I'd say on the other side these weigh towards the practice:
4) It's a long-standing tradition that is only now being challenged
5) It's kind of cool, in that there's a deep hidden cultural meaning in something built into something as mechanical as a gun sight
Its kind of awesome that the verses all have to do with light. All I know is that if becomes a controversy, the gun-sight manufacturers win. I also think the appeal to long-standing tradition is aimed right at Justice Breyer in case someone does make a lawsuit out of this. |
I don't think something being a long-standing tradition should be compelling, but I admit that it probably would be enough on its own to win the day if it were actually legally challenged. With things like, "In God We Trust" still printed on our money, something like this is virtually unassailable from a legal point of view.
I also do agree it's got a certain coolness to it, but that's primarily because I like mythology, including Christian mythology. I'd feel the same way if it were something from the Qur'an, though, or from Norse lore, or so forth. However, If we're just going for cool factor, I think we can do better.
Last edited by Fox on Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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6) How many non-Christian snipers does the US military have, anyway?
7) Can we reduce that number to zero, by any chance?
 Did the D.C. Sniper use one of these sights because that would be ironic.
9) Seriously, didn't you see that WWII movie where the sniper would quote a bible verse to give himself focus right before he shot guys' eyes in? And he only started missing when he stopped saying the bible verse, because he was too rushed. Then he was shot in the face by a tank. These sniper rifle sights are obviously inscribed with bible verses to aid snipers in maintaining their concentration so that they can avoid tank shells to the face. IT SAVES LIVES. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mateomiguel wrote: |
| 9) Seriously, didn't you see that WWII movie where the sniper would quote a bible verse to give himself focus right before he shot guys' eyes in? And he only started missing when he stopped saying the bible verse, because he was too rushed. Then he was shot in the face by a tank. These sniper rifle sights are obviously inscribed with bible verses to aid snipers in maintaining their concentration so that they can avoid tank shells to the face. IT SAVES LIVES. |
I'm pretty sure they could get the same concentration by citing a verse from the Iliad. Plus, it would give them some nice cultural exposure. The passage about Diomedes wounding Ares by hurling his spear at him sounds appropriate. A man, guided and protected by Wisdom, using his violence to drive away War. Isn't that what we want from our soldiers? 
Man, Diomedes was so cool. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| 9) Seriously, didn't you see that WWII movie where the sniper would quote a bible verse to give himself focus right before he shot guys' eyes in? And he only started missing when he stopped saying the bible verse, because he was too rushed. Then he was shot in the face by a tank. These sniper rifle sights are obviously inscribed with bible verses to aid snipers in maintaining their concentration so that they can avoid tank shells to the face. IT SAVES LIVES. |
I'm pretty sure they could get the same concentration by citing a verse from the Iliad. Plus, it would give them some nice cultural exposure. The passage about Diomedes wounding Ares by hurling his spear at him sounds appropriate. A man, guided and protected by Wisdom, using his violence to drive away War. Isn't that what we want from our soldiers?
Man, Diomedes was so cool. |
I agree. We need more Iliad references in our military culture. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I also do agree it's got a certain coolness to it, but that's primarily because I like mythology, including Christian mythology. I'd feel the same way if it were something from the Qur'an, though, or from Norse lore, or so forth. However, If we're just going for cool factor, I think we can do better. |
Agreed. Contrary to what I mentioned before, I think it reeks of Hitler's fascination with teutonic myths and their "proof" of Aryan supremacy. Weapons inscribed with Christian proverbs indicate a religious war to fanatics and likely have very little benefit other than to justify the "good will" aspect that some soldiers may feel they are fighting for, or to give them a power trip as evidenced by the Pulp Fiction reference I brought up. As one might recall, when asked why he uses that statement, Samuel Jackson's character says something to the point of "I just thought it sounds cool" |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Now that the Bible references have hit the evening news, I'm sure OBL is doing back flips of joy since he can back up his claims that the US is waging holy war against Moslems.
Isn't the real question here: How much should we care about helping OBL recruit more suicide bombers? |
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NovaKart
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Does no one else find it a bit blasphemous to put a biblical reference on weapons? I mean it's really bizarre that the same people who are so against abortion would be involved in making guns. I'm not saying that the use of a weapon wouldn't be justified in some circumstances, but I would view that as more of a necessary evil and not something which should be endorsed by Christianity.
Honestly, when I first started reading this article I thought it was made by the Onion. |
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