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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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From the Department of State's Haitian background page...
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Ethnic groups: African descent 95%, African and European descent 5%.
Religions (2003 data): Roman Catholic 55%, Protestant 28%, voudou (voodoo) practices pervasive. |
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Some in the Latin American press have picked up on this -- my source is a Chilean newspaper -- and are now reporting that the Americans just want to take control of Haiti and block others' aid efforts. Do they not have more constructive things they could be doing...?
Nice. |
What's nice is watching the US use the sole functioning airport (after seizing it) to unload what is it now, 10,000 soldiers in anticipation of impending water and food riots. This is rather than sending the food and water instead, outside of a token amount of (likely expired) MREs and sports drinks. But if they did that, there would be likely be no serious riots and thus no justification for having an occupation army. By restricting aid relief they guarantee their own raison d'etre. Clever.
What's next for Haiti? Check out Iraq reconstruction for a clue. Or Kosovo. Or New Orleans for that matter. I'm sure it'll be a very fine base and a wonderful sweatshop too. And with America in control of their coasts, no escaping boatloads of refugees to worry about either. Hell, kind of like being slaves again, eh? How ironic for the Haitians.
Yeah, nice. Real nice |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Your "seizing the airport" and "occupation army" are wholly inappropriate and not based on the facts. Your comparison with Iraq betrays that you have little or no understanding of Caribbean politics in general or this incident in particular. And your reference to slavery is offensive.
Further, the Haitian govt ASKED the United States to take the airport and make it work again. And the Haitian govt -- what remains of it, in any case -- has ASKED the United States to deploy forces. The Haitian president partially explained it to BBC in this language:
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| "We have 2,000 police in Port-au-Prince who are severely affected [by the quake]. And 3,000 bandits escaped from prison," he said. "This gives you an idea of how bad the situation is." |
BBC Reports
Also, the Canadian govt has also pledged up to $50 million in reconstruction and, per the Haitian president's request, is also deploying several thousand troops. Part of the seizure, occupation, and enslavement, eh?
This is not Iraq anymore than Iraq is Vietnam. This is Haiti. What do you know about Haiti, Ersatzredux? And where exactly did you get your information that the United States is distributing expired MREs?
Many of you will resent and hate the United States no matter what it does (or does not do). We can easily withdraw from Haiti, you know. All the Haitian govt need do is ask us out. It could then count on more important and substantial aid from, say, China and India, or France, for that matter, which apparently lacks the skills and experience to simply do advance work re: airport and ground conditions before dispatching planes here or there in the world. Good luck. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ersatzredux wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Some in the Latin American press have picked up on this -- my source is a Chilean newspaper -- and are now reporting that the Americans just want to take control of Haiti and block others' aid efforts. Do they not have more constructive things they could be doing...?
Nice. |
What's nice is watching the US use the sole functioning airport (after seizing it) to unload what is it now, 10,000 soldiers in anticipation of impending water and food riots. This is rather than sending the food and water instead, outside of a token amount of (likely expired) MREs and sports drinks. But if they did that, there would be likely be no serious riots and thus no justification for having an occupation army. By restricting aid relief they guarantee their own raison d'etre. Clever.
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The troops are there to maintain order. After the 2004 SEA Tsunami, there was a great deal of violence.
There's also logistical problems.
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| Even when aid was delivered, there was not yet enough security in place to prevent chaotic scuffles over water and food. U.S. military air traffic controllers have brought some order to the landing and unloading process at the capital's small airport, but officials say the problem now is getting aid safely and fairly distributed in the streets of the ruined city. |
| mises wrote: |
| For America, damned if you do. |
I think most people hold a reasonable view on this one, its only the usual whingers really criticizing.
Here's a thoughtful post on the problems the Haiti catastrophe poses to America and other powers interested in helping put Haiti back on its feet.
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[I]n the short term, the initial reports make it seem like we're going to have to impose some sort of order just to distribute aid. At this point, we can assume that people are already dying from lack of medical care, clean water, and relief supplies, and the losses will mount geometrically as days pass. But there is no one to tell anyone what to do, and no way to tell them, as all communications seem to be knocked out. Until they're restored, Haiti is effectively in the eighteenth century.
But in the longer run, what do you do for a country that already had one of the worst-functioning governments in the world? Half the budget was provided by foreign aid before the earthquake. For the next few years, we will effectively hold government power there, whether we want to or not, because we'll probably essentially be providing all of its funding, and can threaten to turn the taps off unless things go as we demand. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Americans' private-sector donations to Haitian relief has passed $200 million so far.
CNN Reports
Does anyone have any information on private-sector donations from France or anywhere else in western Europe to date? |
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Your "seizing the airport" and "occupation army" are wholly inappropriate and not based on the facts. Your comparison with Iraq betrays that you have little or no understanding of Caribbean politics in general or this incident in particular. And your reference to slavery is offensive. |
Sorry to offend, but I have to call them the way I see them. Brazil and France are both lodging protests over the seizure of the airport. I don't think you got the comparison I making actually. Let me make it explicit. There will be little reconstruction and that which does occur will be shoddy and hugely overpriced, making billions for politically connected American contractors.
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| Further, the Haitian govt ASKED the United States to take the airport and make it work again. |
Really? Do you really think a sovereign state would ask that the military of another nation take absolute control of its only airport? Isn't a lot more likely that this is simply a bit of face saving on the part of the president, a sort of ex post facto justification for what the Americans did? Or, since he was installed by the Americans in the first place, after they and Canada and France got rid of Aristide, isn't most likely that he just says whatever the hell they tell him to say.
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And the Haitian govt -- what remains of it, in any case -- has ASKED the United States to deploy forces. The Haitian president partially explained it to BBC in this language:
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| "We have 2,000 police in Port-au-Prince who are severely affected [by the quake]. And 3,000 bandits escaped from prison," he said. "This gives you an idea of how bad the situation is." |
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Of course he would ask! How else can he and the rest of the parasitic Western installed elite hope to escape the righteous wrath of the populace. The UN force that was already in place was there as an occupying force.
They are not afraid of food and water riots. They want those. They are a wonderful excuse for what is happening now. What they are afraid of is that this might lead to revolution. Then the dreams of sweet mangoes and beautiful resorts, with dirt cheap and wonderfully pliant labour, goes to dust.
And what do I know about Haiti? Well, what do you know? By the way, did you know they diverted all air traffic for three hours so that Hillary Clinton could visit? What a wonderful sense of priorities. |
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, and about the (likely expired) MREs I mentioned- just an educated guess. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Over 200K dead; well over 1 million now homeless, including the Haitian president. And all you have to offer is this far-leftist allegation-driven discourse and bitterness?
And what do I know about Haiti? I know a thing or two about the western hemisphere and its history. You can take it or leave it, of course.
| ersatzredux wrote: |
| Brazil and France are both lodging protests over the seizure of the airport. |
Even assuming that this, exactly as you articulate it, is true, so what? It is the Haitian govt's views on this that matter. It is not Brazil or France's decision to make or place to complain in any way whatsoever.
Also, can you be more specific in supporting this allegation with facts, please?
| ersatzredux wrote: |
| There will be little reconstruction and that which does occur will be shoddy and hugely overpriced, making billions for politically connected American contractors. |
A testable claim. Let us see what happens.
| ersatzredux wrote: |
| Do you really think a sovereign state would ask that the military of another nation take absolute control of its only airport? |
No need for the conditional or what you may or may not find likely here. The Haitian govt did in fact ask this; and it is also asking for American forces on the ground. You can hear this from the Haitian president himself; you can also hear it from grassroots police officers.
| ersatzredux wrote: |
...this is simply a bit of face saving on the part of the president, a sort of ex post facto justification for what the Americans did? Or, since he was installed by the Americans in the first place, after they and Canada and France got rid of Aristide, isn't most likely that he just says whatever the hell they tell him to say...
They are not afraid of food and water riots. They want those. They are a wonderful excuse for what is happening now. What they are afraid of is that this might lead to revolution. Then the dreams of sweet mangoes and beautiful resorts, with dirt cheap and wonderfully pliant labour, goes to dust. |
Do you have any specific evidence to cite, or do you plan to rely upon your worldview and the allegations it produces -- and almost certainly the inclinations of many here to cheer you on -- only? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ersatzredux wrote: |
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| Further, the Haitian govt ASKED the United States to take the airport and make it work again. |
Really? Do you really think a sovereign state would ask that the military of another nation take absolute control of its only airport? |
Possibly, especially if the data regarding aid coming through more quickly and efficiently since then is true. If I were the head of the Haitan government, and the United States Armed Forces -- who I had requested the assistance of -- told me, "Aid will be directed and distributed more quickly and efficiently if you temporarily turn over control of the airport to us," I'd probably say yes too. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Your scenario is offpoint. The Americans did not condition their aid upon the Haitian govt's granting them control over their functioning airport.
The earthquake destroyed the airport and all other receiving facilities, including the port. Power collapsed. No electricity, no communications, and no computers. The airport, like the Haitian govt, simply ceased to function.
The United States Air Force has the training and the contingency plans to move into such an environment and make it work again. Certainly not the Brazilian or French air forces -- who, as far as I know, never even offered anyway. The Haitian president wisely invited the Americans in. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| A lot of nasty looting and violence going on now. Are there any French and Brazilian Marines in Port Au Prince helping retsore order? |
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proustme
Joined: 13 Jun 2009
Location: Nowon-gu
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Donation Campaign
Information below taken from: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/01/116_59239.html
Korea National Red Cross
Phone: 02-3705-3661-5
Bank information: 1005-601-613021 (Woori Bank)
World Vision
Phone: 02-784-2004
Bank information: 082015-19504-036 (Industrial Bank of Korea)
Good Neighbors International
Phone: 02-6717-4000
Bank information: 463537-01-002778 (Kookmin Bank)
UNICEF Korea
Phone: 02-732-8215
Bank information: 140-007-215267 (Shinhan Bank) |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Your scenario is offpoint. The Americans did not condition their aid upon the Haitian govt's granting them control over their functioning airport. |
I never said they did? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher,
Hate to offend again with my pernicious worldview. It's called the real world, by the way, and is based on the idea that seeing what people have done in the past usually gives a good clue for what they will do in the present. As well, it involves judging people by their deeds and acts, not their fine words. Is that considered left wing? Then I guess I stand guilty as charged.
As for background on Haiti, I studied it directly in International Relations many years ago and have been keeping tabs on what's been going on since. I've also been published on the 2004 US/Canada/France backed coup, and that has meant until fairly recently that I was getting updates directly from Haiti from people in country. Just so you know.
First off, here is the truth about the on the ground situation from someone who is actually on the ground.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/20/haiti-aid-agency-security
And what is happening with actual delivery of supplies to the suffering people of Haiti? Look at this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/jan/20/haiti-water-us-occupation
So essentially the Pentagon is allowing people to suffer and die in droves because of a hugely exaggerated and mostly fabricated "security threat". No one available to deliver supplies but they can send Blackhawk helicopters and Special Forces to "secure" the Presidential Palace. And at the same time they are blocking landings from countries they don't like. See this, for example:
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=14739950&PageNum=0
And because of this more people suffer and die. Like I said before, nice, real nice.
But if you shut your eyes real tight and plug your ears you can keep your own worldview intact. After all, that's what it's all about right? Keeping the faith no matter how much BS you have to swallow and regurgitate? Wave that flag high! As for me, I will continue to watch what they actually do. |
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