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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:20 am Post subject: |
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My lefty friends are sending me articles about how America is colonizing Haiti. Hmm. Is that so bad? This half-assed muddling "aid" paradigm seems more to help lefty feelings than actual Haitian suffering. Has "aid" accomplished anything beyond assisting the phenomenal expansion of the population?
Anyways,
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| Let me take another tact with this. When have you ever heard of security being the paramount concern of rescuers after an earthquake or hurricane? |
They are in Haiti. Haiti. Not some flooded area in North Dakota or post-disaster Thailand. Haiti. Security is very important.
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| Just how often do the victims of these catastrophes attack their saviours while in the process of being saved? Really? |
I've never been in a rescue operation in Haiti. Nor have you. If I were to go, I would only go if some big bad Marines had my back. And all the surgeons, nurses etc from South Florida will demand the same.
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| As for the danger of looting, wouldn't it make a lot more sense for the international community to guarantee losses to the shopkeepers and tell people who dying from thirst and starvation to help themselves to whatever they can salvage.Why is it such a big deal that troops to combat it take precedence over water, food, and medical help? |
First, you need to free your mind from lefty propaganda. There is no such thing as the "international community". There are self-interested states. The conflict we see between the French, Brazilians and Americans demonstrates this. Next, there must be some organization. This is Haiti. Do children and women benefit from looting? Or just violent young men? Never mind.
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| What is wrong with you people? |
I'm not sure. |
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rocket_scientist
Joined: 23 Nov 2009 Location: Prague
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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Security is needed as these people double as logistics staff - big mounds of poorly guarded supplies = mobs = subsequent liberal criticism of incompetence
liberals are only about helping themselves while making it look like they are helping others
Liberals make political opportunism while Haitians die |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: |
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The Haitian govt no longer functions and its entire infrastructure has collapsed.
Somalia would be a better example... I feel fairly certain that this is exactly how the Obama administration is approaching the problem. UN and other aid agencies initially approached the Somali problem as Ersatz and others here want for Haiti: simply dispatch aid groups, doctors, and all supplies available directly into the grassroots population. But strongmen arose, seized the aid, etc., and eventually, the H.W. Bush administration had to dispatch the Marines to (1) restore security and order, so that (2) the international community could aid Somalis effectively. |
Somalia is the right comparison, I reckon.
Here we have a manifestation of the fundamental difference between those with conservative dispositions (grounded in the real world) and those with a Utopian, hippie disposition. It is clear to you and I Gopher that, human nature being as it is, you need strong security and heavily enforced rules or the population will be at the mercy of whoever decides to inflict the most damage on civilians. The hippies want to give food to the people and trust that "the community" will divide it equally (and use 100% of the buffalo..one with nature etc) at the local community center.
Boots on the ground with big guns. Protect women, children and peaceful men. Protect aid workers and supplies. And if the French want to cry, let them cry. |
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ersatzredux

Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Hey, whatever happened to the "4000 escaped convicts" we'd been hearing about? Did someone finally figure out that it was extremely improbable that a prison could both completely collapse so that all the doors would open, and yet leave the inmates alive, healthy, and free to escape? Or maybe it just didn't matter once the boots were on the ground.
Actually, maybe it doesn't matter at all what the story is, there are enough people around who are eager to swallow it whole. Real men don't think, right? That's for them dirty hippies.
Men fit to be slaves! |
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| ersatzredux wrote: |
Hey, whatever happened to the "4000 escaped convicts" we'd been hearing about? Did someone finally figure out that it was extremely improbable that a prison could both completely collapse so that all the doors would open, and yet leave the inmates alive, healthy, and free to escape? Or maybe it just didn't matter once the boots were on the ground.
Actually, maybe it doesn't matter at all what the story is, there are enough people around who are eager to swallow it whole. Real men don't think, right? That's for them dirty hippies.
Men fit to be slaves! |
It's extremely easy to believe that 4000 prisoners could riot and escape in such a situation, actually. I don't know exactly what occured, but a scenario I could easily see playing out:
1) Earthquake begins.
2) Prisoners are removed from their cells under armed guard, as leaving them indoors during an earthquake of this magnitude could result in their deaths. They are now outdoors, but in a walled-in enclosure.
3) Once outside their cells, a riot began, the guards were overwhelmed.
4) The earthquake, more intense than anticipated, brought down enough of the outer wall to allow the prisoners egress.
Is this what happened? I don't know, but it seems plausible enough. |
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pkang0202

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Funny things I've heard about Haiti:
One guy suggested the US just bring all the Haitians to the US and have us take care of them there. And when everything is rebuilt, we'd ship them back to Haiti. Kinda like Extreme Home Makeover.
Loved this quote from Danny Glover:
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| "What happened in Haiti could happen to anywhere in the Caribbean because all these island nations are in peril because of global warming," Glover said. "When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I'm sayin'?" |
So, the Earth is punishing Haiti because of the failure at the Copenhagen Climate Summit. Danny Glover everyone. I bet you most of his buddies in Hollywood believe that also. These are the people that voted for Obama. |
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bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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The kidnapping of Haiti
John Pilger
Published 28 January 2010
With US troops in control of their country, the outlook for the people of Haiti is bleak
The theft of Haiti has been swift and crude. On 22 January, the United States secured "formal approval" from the United Nations to take over all air and sea ports in Haiti, and to "secure" roads. No Haitian signed the agreement, which has no basis in law. Power rules in a US naval blockade and the arrival of 13,000 marines, special forces, spooks and mercenaries, none with humanitarian relief training.
The airport in the capital, Port-au-Prince, is now a US military base and relief flights have been rerouted to the Dominican Republic. All flights stopped for three hours for the arrival of Hillary Clinton. Critically injured Haitians waited unaided as 800 American residents in Haiti were fed, watered and evacuated. Six days passed before the US air force dropped bottled water to people suffering dehydration.
A very American coup
The first TV reports played a critical role, giving the impression of widespread criminal mayhem. Matt Frei, the BBC reporter despatched from Washington, seemed on the point of hyperventilating as he brayed about the "violence" and need for "security". In spite of the demonstrable dignity of the earthquake victims, and evidence of citizens' groups toiling unaided to rescue people, and even a US general's assessment that the violence in Haiti was considerably less than before the earthquake, Frei claimed that "looting is the only industry" and "the dignity of Haiti's past is long forgotten".
Thus, a history of unerring US violence and exploitation in Haiti was consigned to the victims. "There's no doubt," reported Frei in the aftermath of America's bloody invasion of Iraq in 2003, "that the desire to bring good, to bring American values to the rest of the world, and especially now to the Middle East . . . is now increasingly tied up with military power."
more at link |
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Tell you what, if the Haitian government isn't up and running again within 1 year, then we can start talking about a coup. Talking about it now just seems like people who are willing to use any excuse to attack America. The fact that the website this is taken from has an image asking, "Who poses the greater threat?" with Ahmadinejad and Obama super-imposed upon one another says quite a bit about its political leanings. Let's look at some specific claims, though.
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| On 22 January, the United States secured "formal approval" from the United Nations to take over all air and sea ports in Haiti, and to "secure" roads. |
The fact that he put "formal approval" in quotes implies that he has zero respect for the United Nations. That's a great place to start this diatribe, by dismissing the United Nations out of hand. Somehow I think that if the United Nations had denied "formal approval" to America's involvement, and America had gone in anyway, the fact that America had ignored the United Nations would have made an appearance in this diatribe.
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| Critically injured Haitians waited unaided as 800 American residents in Haiti were fed, watered and evacuated. |
A very nice vague statement. "Critically injured Haitians waited unaided." It doesn't say how many there were, or how long they waited; it remains true so long as at least 2 injured Haitians waited for any amount of time. The perfect condemnation; incredibly vague, impossible to disprove, but it leaves you with the sense that something bad is going on here. The fact that the author criticizes the American military -- who he seems to feel shouldn't be there at all -- for assisting and evacuating American citizens is just icing on the cake. How shocking that a nation might dedicate some of its own resources to helping its own citizens.
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| Never before in so-called peacetime have human relations been as militarised by rapacious power. |
So called peacetime? So called by who? America is in the middle of a number of military operations. One might not agree with those military operations -- I certainly don't -- but calling this peacetime seems to me to be highly questionable. Hell, the author himself contradicts this claim of peacetime, saying Obama is, "... pursuing George W Bush's policy of war and domination ..." So why try to characterize this as peacetime? The answer, of course, is to try to rile people up.
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| Bush's relief effort following Hurricane Katrina in 2005 amounted to an ethnic cleansing of many of New Orleans's black population. |
Great, so now botched relief efforts are evidently tantamount to genocide.
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| Obama's secret support for the illegal regime in Honduras carries a clear warning to vulnerable governments in central America. |
And here we go making central American politics all about "secret United States involvement" rather than admitting these are nations of their own, with people of their own, governments of their own, and problems of their own. Any problem in central America suddenly becomes valid grounds to criticize the United States. This author is all over the place, he's pretty much just engaged in an anti-American rant that strays from subject to subject. "I don't like the American military involvement in Haiti... which brings to mind Honduras and Obama's secret meddling in the region... on that reminds me, I think Obama's probably going to attack Venezuela... " Come on. |
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bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:12 am Post subject: |
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AlterNet / By Arun Gupta
More Pain for Devastated Haiti: Under the Pretense of Disaster Relief, U.S. Running a Military Occupation
The rapid mobilization of U.S troops in Haiti was not primarily done for humanitarian reasons; we're likely to see a neoliberal economic plan imposed, at gunpoint if necessary.
February 12, 2010 |
Official denials aside, the United States has embarked on a new military occupation of Haiti thinly cloaked as disaster relief. While both the Pentagon and the United Nations claimed more troops were needed to provide "security and stability" to bring in aid, according to nearly all independent observers in the field, violence was never an issue.
Instead, there appears to be cruder motives for the military response. With Haiti�s government "all but invisible" and its repressive security forces collapsed, popular organizations were starting to fill the void. But the Western powers rushing in envision sweatshops and tourism as the foundation of a rebuilt Haiti. This is opposed by the popular organizations, which draw their strength from Haiti�s overwhelmingly poor majority. Thus, if a neoliberal plan is going to be imposed on a devastated Haiti it will be done at gunpoint.
The rapid mobilization of thousands of U.S troops was not for humanitarian reasons; in fact it crowded out much of the arriving aid into the Port-au-Prince airport, forcing lengthy delays. Doctors Without Borders said five of its cargo flights carrying 85 tons of medical and relief supplies were turned away during the first week while flights from the World Food Program were delayed up to two days. One WFP official said of the 200 flights going in and out of Haiti daily �most � are for the U.S. military.� Nineteen days into the crisis, only 32 percent of Haitians in need had received any food (even if just a single meal), three-quarters were without clean water, the government had received only two percent of the tents it had requested and hospitals in the capital reported they were running "dangerously low" on basic medical supplies like antibiotics and painkillers. On Feb. 9, the Washington Post reported that food aid was little more than rice, and �Every day, tens of thousands of Haitians face a grueling quest to find food, any food. A nutritious diet is out of the question.�
At the same time, the United States had assumed control of Haiti�s airspace, landed 6,500 soldiers on the ground, with another 15,000 troops offshore at one point, dispatched an armada of naval vessels and nine coast guard cutters to patrol the waters, and the U.S. embassy was issuing orders on behalf of the Haitian government. In a telling account, the New York Times described a press conference in Haiti at which �the American ambassador and the American general in charge of the United States troops deployed here� were �seated at center stage,� while Haitian President Ren� Pr�val stood in the back �half-listening� and eventually �wandered away without a word."
continues at link |
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