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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
What is this distinction exactly? |
Islam: Monotheism (with Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God), fasting, charity, haj, five prayers per day
Islamism: The coercive spread of Islam
| Bigverne wrote: |
| It seems to me that this false distinction is a way of shielding Muslims from criticism of their religion. |
Others may well employ the term with that in mind. I don't. I employ the term given the different empirical facts concerning two groups: Islamists, such as Hamas, Hezbolah, Al Qaeda and Islam4uk. Clearly, whilst all Islamists are Muslims (and Islamism is Islamic), the vast majority of Muslims don't appear to be Islamists. All lions are cats, but any given cat one may come across isn't necessarily a lion though they may share properties.
| Bigverne wrote: |
| In reality, there is very little distinction between Islam, and Islamism |
It would be sloppy, however, to refer to groups such as Islam4uk or Hamas as simply Muslim or Islamic groups. Islamist is more precise, and I feel sure that it's in this sense - shades of meaning and precision with language - that some distinction between Islam and Islamism is used in ordinary discourse. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
| Exactly. If you want to check out a film that bashes Christianity have a look at The Life of Brian, the Monty Python flic. It is a fabulous lampoon. |
Well, in the only scene portraying an actual Christian, ie. Christ himself, he is portrayed rather respectfully. It's the people in the crowd, who fail to hear his message and in fact behave completely contrary to his teachings, who are lampooned.
The film does use a lot of the standard motifs of Bible movies for laughs, but I see it more as a parody of those movies themselves, rather than of Christianity.
A better example of anti-Christian blasphemy(at least from the point of view of Christians who think homosexuality is wrong)...
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The Love That Dares To Speak Its Name
By James Kirkup
As they took him from the cross
I, the centurion, took him in my arms-
the tough lean body
of a man no longer young,
beardless, breathless,
but well hung.
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And that actually was prosecuted, successfully, for blasphemy, albeit over 30 years ago. But it should be pointed out that Wilders is NOT being charged with blasphemy, but with something along the lines of spreading hatred. Though I agree that, in a case like Wlider's, the distinction between prosecution for hatred and prosecution for blasphemy might be a very slight one(since the devout will probably regard any animosity toward their faith as blasphemous, even if those aren't the actual charges.)
Link to the complete poem
Wiki article about the trial |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Freedom of speech doesn't really exist. If it did, then how come unions don't really get much coverage in the US press? The corporations control much of the press except for maybe NPR. In Canada, if you engage in gay bashing publicly or bashing of certain religious groups, you could be prosecuted, so it's not only Europe. It's also in Canada. Do I oppose it? I am not sure. I don't support hate speech. Some people want to provoke conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims and have some sectarian conflict going on, and I don't see the point since lives are at stake. People say people should be able to say what they want, when in reality we can't in any country. Can we really say what we want in the US?
I am not saying I support the prosecution of Geert Wilders, but it's so simple to connect religious verses out of context to justify violence by a group. One can do the same with Jews and Christians. What's the point? I know people will say when do Christians use violence and associate it with violence?
Well, it happened in South Africa with the Afrikanners. It happened with Evangelicals who encouraged war in Iraq in 1991 and after that and who support Israel so Jesus can return. Some state in Israel that Barak maybe should be killed for promoting a settlement freeze because they interpret the religion to think one cannot give an inch of land.
Bush believed God told him to invade Iraq. Sarah Palin believed God had a plan for her to be chosen by McCain, and who knows what other violent views her supporters have. I think the thing is Islam is used as a scapegoat when other religious groups are also responsible for the lack of security in the world including various Christians and Jews, not just radical Muslims. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I don't support hate speech. |
Define 'hate speech'. |
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