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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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 Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: The punishment for a false rape charge |
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Anybody who lies in court already faces severe consequences, perjury. The courts just need to enforce it if someone is PROVEN to be lying. |
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Olivencia
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't know if the punishment for perjury is anywhere near or as injurious as a rape accusation/conviction. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Lodging a false accusation of a crime is already illegal. There doesn't need to be any strengthened punishment for false rape accusations because rates of false rape accusations are no higher than false report rates for other crimes. |
Is this really true? I've never actually seen data on it, have you? Or anyone here for that matter? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Lodging a false accusation of a crime is already illegal. There doesn't need to be any strengthened punishment for false rape accusations because rates of false rape accusations are no higher than false report rates for other crimes. |
Is this really true? I've never actually seen data on it, have you? Or anyone here for that matter? |
I haven't seen those stats either, but the US Dept of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics maintains an entire website of data. If anyone cares to go through it, it might be there. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Big Bird wrote: |
So would bonafide accusations.
How could a bonafide accuser be confident that he/she would not suddenly find themselves the criminal if not enough evidence could be produced to support their accusation? |
In the case of children, one can make an anonymous, toll-free telephone call to which Social Services must respond within 24 hours. If the accusation is against a household member, the children can be taken away for the length of the investigation or for good.
If convicted, the accused loses custody of his children and goes to prison for a long time. Even if he finishes his sentence, he can then be "civilly committed," i.e. remain in a secure "hospital" which is often also run by the Dept. of Corrections. He can then only get out if one or more psychiatrists determine that he is no longer dangerous. The problem is that almost no psychiatrist will be willing to go out on a limb and say the person will not reoffend. If they are lucky, they may get cleared after several years or decades.
Even if one does get out, he must then go on a sex offender registry, possibly for life. He is also subject to ever-popular residency restrictions, making entire communities or even cities off-limits to them and leading to the situation like that in Florida where a judge has actually approved a bunch of released sex offenders living under a bridge.
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| This has become a problem for parents in jurisdictions where parents are relieved of custody of their children if they accuse the other parent of abusing their child and not enough evidence can be produced. |
This is a reaction to the fact that women had learned that the easiest and quickest way to make sure they got custody was to accuse the husband of sex abuse. It was a long overdue attempt at correcting a problem.
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I was recently reading that in Australia they are currently having a big rethink about this. A four year old girl was thrown off a bridge by her violent father who had shared custody. Previously, the mother had not dared to report his violence because of these stupid laws (brought in a few years ago) whereby if a co-parent's accusation can not be substantiated, the accuser has to pay some or all of the court proceedings. On top of this, a parent who makes such accusations without being able to prove them may be deemed 'unfriendly' by the courts and have their share of custody reduced.
All along there have been critics saying that this will lead to a 'victim's dillema' where abuse is under reported as the accuser is scared of not being believed and worse, being harshly punished. And now in the light of this tragic case, these laws (which seemed such a great idea at the time) are seen as dangerous.
Again, be careful what you wish for. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Aren't there laws such as 'wasting police time' that cover what these two women did? Anyway, it seems very improbable that any conviction would have taken place even if these two idiots had not retracted their accusation. And I rather wonder if it was more than "they didn't like the sex." |
Yeah Lying to the police is actually breaking the law. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:00 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to inject a couple of points of common sense into this discussion:
First of all, I think we can all agree that the vast majority of women regard making a false and/or malicious accusation of rape is one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another.
Second...we have to admit that yes, it does sometimes happen. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I think we can all agree that the vast majority of women regard making a false and/or malicious accusation of rape is one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another. |
Actually, this is not true. While most women would agree it is a bad thing to do, they don't hold it to be "one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another." (There are other acts which they save that distinction for). Sure, they think it is bad, but how bad they think it is generally depends on the circumstances. It can range from:
-- well, it kind of serves him right. I mean he really shouldn't have [cut and past the circumstances]....
to:
-- Yea, she shouldn't have said that about him, but still, it is nowhere near as bad as getting raped, and that's the most important thing -- that women feel comfortable reporting it when it is the real thing, so it's really okay, all in all. And anyway , he can move to a different city and make new friends 
Rarely if ever have I heard a woman describe a false accusation in the terms you have suggested. Most women downplay its significance and change the subject fairly quickly. I'll repeat what I said earlier: most women feel a deep psychological comfort at having this newfound ability. They're not going to do much in the way of invalidating it. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Lodging a false accusation of a crime is already illegal. There doesn't need to be any strengthened punishment for false rape accusations because rates of false rape accusations are no higher than false report rates for other crimes. |
Is this really true? I've never actually seen data on it, have you? Or anyone here for that matter? |
It's been a long time since I was really in the weeds of crime statistics, but as I recall that is basically the FBI's conclusion. Private researchers have found rates varying from 2% to 50% or more, so I think it's hard to put a lot of stock in them. There's also the issue of how you classify an "unfounded" report, which means the police thought a lack of evidence made an arrest futile, but not (necessarily) that they thought the report was false. When cops unfound reports they don't show up in their crime rates, so they have some incentive to do so. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think we can all agree that the vast majority of women regard making a false and/or malicious accusation of rape is one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another. |
Actually, this is not true. While most women would agree it is a bad thing to do, they don't hold it to be "one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another." (There are other acts which they save that distinction for). Sure, they think it is bad, but how bad they think it is generally depends on the circumstances. It can range from:
-- well, it kind of serves him right. I mean he really shouldn't have [cut and past the circumstances]....
to:
-- Yea, she shouldn't have said that about him, but still, it is nowhere near as bad as getting raped, and that's the most important thing -- that women feel comfortable reporting it when it is the real thing, so it's really okay, all in all. And anyway , he can move to a different city and make new friends
Rarely if ever have I heard a woman describe a false accusation in the terms you have suggested. Most women downplay its significance and change the subject fairly quickly. I'll repeat what I said earlier: most women feel a deep psychological comfort at having this newfound ability. They're not going to do much in the way of invalidating it. |
And what, pray tell, are you basing this on- other than your own rampant misogyny? As a sexual assault survivor myself, I think people who cry rape falsely are the worst sort of scum- both because they can ruin the man's life, but also because they make it easier for men to dismiss actual rape cases. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think we can all agree that the vast majority of women regard making a false and/or malicious accusation of rape is one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another. |
Actually, this is not true. While most women would agree it is a bad thing to do, they don't hold it to be "one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another." (There are other acts which they save that distinction for). Sure, they think it is bad, but how bad they think it is generally depends on the circumstances. It can range from:
-- well, it kind of serves him right. I mean he really shouldn't have [cut and past the circumstances]....
to:
-- Yea, she shouldn't have said that about him, but still, it is nowhere near as bad as getting raped, and that's the most important thing -- that women feel comfortable reporting it when it is the real thing, so it's really okay, all in all. And anyway , he can move to a different city and make new friends
Rarely if ever have I heard a woman describe a false accusation in the terms you have suggested. Most women downplay its significance and change the subject fairly quickly. I'll repeat what I said earlier: most women feel a deep psychological comfort at having this newfound ability. They're not going to do much in the way of invalidating it. |
And what, pray tell, are you basing this on- other than your own rampant misogyny? As a sexual assault survivor myself, I think people who cry rape falsely are the worst sort of scum- both because they can ruin the man's life, but also because they make it easier for men to dismiss actual rape cases. |
Bang on. Women who cry rape do untold damage to both the men they accuse and to the millions of rape victims the world over who are raped. I really don't understand what Trevor is banging on about. Just the sheer bloody nonsense of someone with a 'us against them' mentality. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's coolf off a bit, ladies. There is nothing in my posts to suggest misogyny. False accusations are a problem and the problem overwhelmingly arises from women making false claims against men. Women are very much attached to the power of making accusations with impunity, and collectlively they are extremely defensive about maintaining that ability -- overriding any concerns towards men -- as Bigbird and Peppermint have shown. Us against them? Well, I haven't made any ad hominem personal attacks (ahem). You decide. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think we can all agree that the vast majority of women regard making a false and/or malicious accusation of rape is one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another. |
Actually, this is not true. While most women would agree it is a bad thing to do, they don't hold it to be "one of the most morally repugnant things one human being can do to another." (There are other acts which they save that distinction for). Sure, they think it is bad, but how bad they think it is generally depends on the circumstances. It can range from:
-- well, it kind of serves him right. I mean he really shouldn't have [cut and past the circumstances]....
to:
-- Yea, she shouldn't have said that about him, but still, it is nowhere near as bad as getting raped, and that's the most important thing -- that women feel comfortable reporting it when it is the real thing, so it's really okay, all in all. And anyway , he can move to a different city and make new friends
Rarely if ever have I heard a woman describe a false accusation in the terms you have suggested. Most women downplay its significance and change the subject fairly quickly. I'll repeat what I said earlier: most women feel a deep psychological comfort at having this newfound ability. They're not going to do much in the way of invalidating it. |
And what, pray tell, are you basing this on- other than your own rampant misogyny? As a sexual assault survivor myself, I think people who cry rape falsely are the worst sort of scum- both because they can ruin the man's life, but also because they make it easier for men to dismiss actual rape cases. |
I am shocked that you leave out the third (and some feminists would say most important) reason: because it demeans the experience of true rape victims  |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| Lodging a false accusation of a crime is already illegal. There doesn't need to be any strengthened punishment for false rape accusations because rates of false rape accusations are no higher than false report rates for other crimes. |
Is this really true? I've never actually seen data on it, have you? Or anyone here for that matter? |
It's been a long time since I was really in the weeds of crime statistics, but as I recall that is basically the FBI's conclusion. Private researchers have found rates varying from 2% to 50% or more, so I think it's hard to put a lot of stock in them. There's also the issue of how you classify an "unfounded" report, which means the police thought a lack of evidence made an arrest futile, but not (necessarily) that they thought the report was false. When cops unfound reports they don't show up in their crime rates, so they have some incentive to do so. |
Okay. I was just hoping you had some specific data on the question is all. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Copied from the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
In 1994, Dr. Eugene J. Kanin of Purdue University investigated the incidences, in one small unidentified urban community, of false rape allegations made to the police between 1978 and 1987. Dr. Kanin asserts that "unlike those in many larger jurisdictions, this police department had the resources to "seriously record and pursue to closure all rape complaints, regardless of their merits". He further states each investigation "always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects." and "the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false." The falseness of the allegations was not decided by the police, Dr. Kanin, nor upon physical or testimonial evidence. The number of false rape allegations concluded in the studied period was 45; this was 41% of the 109 total complaints filed in this period. In Dr. Kanin's research, the complainants who made false allegations did so (by their own statements during recantation) for one or some combination of three major reasons:
-- providing an alibi. Dr. Kanin's report describes a woman who got into a bar fight and, fearing that this might prevent her from regaining custody of her children, filed a rape complaint to account for her injuries.
-- a means of gaining revenge. Dr. Kanin's report describes an 18 year old woman who engages in consensual sex with a boarder staying at her house. After he refuses to continue their relationship she accuses him of rape.
-- a platform for seeking attention/sympathy. Dr. Kanin's report describes a woman who becomes attracted to her therapist and in an attempt to elicit sympathy from him fabricates a story of rape and is subsequently pressured by him to report it to the police.
Dr. Kanin also looked at the police records of two large mid western state universities and found that, of the 64 rape accusations, 32 (50%) were eventually recanted. Unlike the city police in the other study, the university police did not use polygraph examinations and the investigations were all performed by female officers. This figure also forms a lower estimate of the total number of false accusations reported to the police during this period and it is similarly possible that there were false accusations that were never recanted and resulted in convictions. However Kanin warns against reading too much into his results: "Certainly our intent is not to suggest that the 41 percent incidence found here be extrapolated to other populations, particularly in light of our ignorance regarding the structural variables."[13] |
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