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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Okay, Big Bird. Like I said, don't worry about it. I don't want to pull you into discussions that you feel contain ugly rhetoric, posts too long for you to read, and which you don't feel you can finish. It's fine, and I'm sorry my stance on Israel -- which is that it deserves to be a state, and shouldn't be held to a different standard than other nations in the region, but should grant equality to all its citizens and cease any and all human rights abuses -- is disagreeable to you. |
No, what is disagreeable is your attempts to slur your opponents as anti-semites. |
Anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic are two completely different things. |
You called me a bigot. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| On top of that, you discussed my (invented) beliefs about Jews and Judaism. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Okay, Big Bird. Like I said, don't worry about it. I don't want to pull you into discussions that you feel contain ugly rhetoric, posts too long for you to read, and which you don't feel you can finish. It's fine, and I'm sorry my stance on Israel -- which is that it deserves to be a state, and shouldn't be held to a different standard than other nations in the region, but should grant equality to all its citizens and cease any and all human rights abuses -- is disagreeable to you. |
No, what is disagreeable is your attempts to slur your opponents as anti-semites. |
Anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic are two completely different things. |
You called me a bigot. |
But not an anti-Semite. And I'm sorry, but I still feel, based on what you've said, that your views on Israel reveal an anti-Israeli bias. If that upsets you, that's a shame, but I'm not going to lie about it. If you want to come on here, and address a nuanced, historically complex problem simply in terms of "Israel is wrong, period," then I'm going to retain that belief. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Okay, Big Bird. Like I said, don't worry about it. I don't want to pull you into discussions that you feel contain ugly rhetoric, posts too long for you to read, and which you don't feel you can finish. It's fine, and I'm sorry my stance on Israel -- which is that it deserves to be a state, and shouldn't be held to a different standard than other nations in the region, but should grant equality to all its citizens and cease any and all human rights abuses -- is disagreeable to you. |
No, what is disagreeable is your attempts to slur your opponents as anti-semites. |
Anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic are two completely different things. |
You called me a bigot. |
But not an anti-Semite. |
It's near enough. And your insinuations are ugly either way. You crap on about my belief that Jews are the unique problem, in the scheme of things.
It boggles my mind.
And you also persist with this crazy nonsense about me 'defending Islam' (what does that mean exactly, I wish you would define it for me) and 'glorifying Islam' which is an accusation I find quite bizarre. What does it mean? Can you give me a specific example of this glorification?
In truth, I think Islam and Judaism are much of a muchness, in the scheme of things. You find nutters in both houses, and plenty of normal civil people also abound. That applies to the various strains of Christianity too. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Okay, Big Bird. Like I said, don't worry about it. I don't want to pull you into discussions that you feel contain ugly rhetoric, posts too long for you to read, and which you don't feel you can finish. It's fine, and I'm sorry my stance on Israel -- which is that it deserves to be a state, and shouldn't be held to a different standard than other nations in the region, but should grant equality to all its citizens and cease any and all human rights abuses -- is disagreeable to you. |
No, what is disagreeable is your attempts to slur your opponents as anti-semites. |
Anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic are two completely different things. |
You called me a bigot. |
But not an anti-Semite. And I'm sorry, but I still feel, based on what you've said, that your views on Israel reveal an anti-Israeli bias. If that upsets you, that's a shame, but I'm not going to lie about it. If you want to come on here, and address a nuanced, historically complex problem simply in terms of "Israel is wrong, period," then I'm going to retain that belief. |
You still haven't specified what being 'anti-Israel' means.
From what I can glean, it seems to mean you are against the occupation of territories. If you are against the occupation, then, you are anti-Israel. Apparantly, in Fox-land that is.
If you laid off making up lies about my supposed position, that would be nice too.
You say you didn't call me an anti-semite (and you didn't outright) but you insisted on framing my objections as being against Jews and Judaism. Therefore you did a great job of suggesting it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| You still haven't specified what being 'anti-Israel' means. |
I spoke about it in this thread. Feel free to look it up. Or don't.
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| From what I can glean, it seems to mean you are against the occupation of territories. If you are against the occupation, then, you are anti-Israeli. |
No.
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| You say you didn't call me an anti-semite (and you didn't outright) but you insisted on framing my objections as being against Jews and Judaism. Therefore you did a great job of suggesting it. |
I don't think you are against Jews or Judaism. You do seem to be against a Jewish nation, though. This is why I use the term anti-Israeli instead of anti-Semite. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I don't think you are against Jews or Judaism. You do seem to be against a Jewish nation, though. This is why I use the term anti-Israeli instead of anti-Semite. |
What do you mean "against a Jewish nation?"
I would be against any creation of a nation that involved robbing killing and displacing others. If Europeans were currently settling the US or Australia, I would be dead set against it. If the Romans were currently occupying the lower half of Britain, I would be dead set against it. None of these were justifiable in my opinion. Nor was the creation of Israel.
You claim it was justifiable because you believe each religion should be allowed to have at least one country. I think that is pure bollocks. You claim I believe that Christians and Muslims should have the right to have their own nations. In fact, I do not. I don't see that any one group has the right to f*** over another people and steal their land just because of some nonsensical right for any religion to have their own country. It's pure bollocks. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I don't think you are against Jews or Judaism. You do seem to be against a Jewish nation, though. This is why I use the term anti-Israeli instead of anti-Semite. |
What do you mean "against a Jewish nation?" |
You said you were against a Jewish nation (in fact, you called me wholly irrational when I was talking about the idea), you challenged me to give examples of Christian nations (completely ignoring Muslim ones despite me bringing them up a number of times), you declared the Christian nations "not Christian nations" despite their national religions and majority populations because they didn't 'steal land and oppress people' (no idea what that has to do with national religion), and then you hemmed by seemingly saying you were against national religions in general, despite the fact that you didn't seem to have a problem with the idea until it was convenient to your case in opposing Israel.
Look, Big Bird, I know what I've read, and you certainly wrote quite a bit. I really don't feel I need any more explanation from you on this matter. I share some of your beliefs, like wanting equality for Palestinians no matter which nation they currently reside it, and wanting an end to all human rights abuses in that area. I also am uncomfortable with some of the ideas you've expressed in this thread - a discomfort I've all ready expressed sufficiently. I really don't think this conversation will do anything except upset you and waste time you could be spending on your children. As such, I'm ending it. I'm sorry you're unhappy with some of the things I've said, but I stand by them. That's all. Thanks for the chat. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Robert Fisk is a communist sympathizer and a Saddam Hussein apologist. |
You must be out of your mind. Fisk despised Hussein. |
Why should facts be allowed to get in the way?
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Robert Fisk is a communist sympathizer and a Saddam Hussein apologist. |
You must be out of your mind. Fisk despised Hussein. |
Why should facts be allowed to get in the way?
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It certainly has never seemed to stop him before  |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:08 am Post subject: |
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ddeubel wrote:
SS,
thanks for NOT addressing my point about "methodology"
I didn't address your 'point' about methodology because you didn't have a point. It was empty, surface rhetoric. I brought some statistics to the table that failed to flatter the anti-Israel worldview, and those statistics were rejected as irrelevant and racist by yourself, using empty rhetoric, self-contradictions and pretentious waffle to do so. 'Numbers can be pasted/cut and framed any way. It is the methodology that counts' isn't a point. It's a mere assertion backed up with threats of 'you're a racist' - which would be extremely offensive, were it not so mired in hopeless, juvenile absurdity
ddeubel wrote:
you [sic] myopic vision (which at its end IS racist).
If the presentation of statistics as to economic benefits of the Israeli occupation is racist, then you're advocating a definition of racism that nobody else in the world is familiar with.
ddeubel wrote:
(and do you need a lesson in history
No, I decidedly do not need a lesson in history, thank you - as I, unlike you, am actually qualified to teach it.
In any case, ddeubel continued with his 'history lesson', as follows.....
Quote:
how they said, "what us, hurting the Jews? No, look, they are lawyers, they have schools, they have bla bla....). I call your bluff, let's leave it at that.
...an extremely crass attempt at historical and ethical equivalence. The major differences, of course, are that Jews actually were barred from many professions and experienced great poverty as a result. Europeans singlehandedly created conditions for the Jews that were beyond retrograde - providing fertile fields for the annihilation of 5.2m Jews in Germany. The economic conditions the Israelis brought to the Palestinians, however, couldn't be in more stark contrast, and the Palestinian population has trebled, with 260 new Arab towns on the map in 1994 than was the case during the British Mandate. It is under the Arab leaderships that Palestinians' living standards plunged. If any equivalence is to be drawn, it is between Europeans and Arab leaderships, for the latter stole decades of Palestinian wealth (and used it for terrorism). Under the Israelis, they had the highest standard of living of any Arab country except the oil states.
ddeubel wrote:
What you call progress is not.
That's a matter of opinion and there's no reason to accept mere assertion in the absence of any attempt to actually argue for your claim.
ddeubel wrote:
As Tolstoy extolled, "the only progress is the progress of the heart".
Well, what a tender notion, but the nitty-gritty of everyday life is absolutely crucial to progress. Superior material conditions give rise to higher moral standards (the reverse also holds). Since the Palestinians' living conditions plummeted so steeply under their Arab leaderships, it comes as no surprise that the Israelis have to stoop so low as to erect barriers on the Green Line in response to a dramatic rise in the numbers of virgins-hunting suicide murderers during 2000-3.
ddeubel wrote:
to pre I hear very faint beats of that in the concept of Greater Israel. Only conquering, divine entitlement and murderous dehumanization of the "other". Not exactly the path of Abraham.
Oh, give me a break. 70% of Israelis living in the West Bank live in what are essentially suburbs of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. 94% of the population live within 10 miles of the Green Line. In any event, Resolution 242 allows Israel to administer the territories it won in 1967 until 'a just and lasting peace in the Middle East' is achieved. Only one side has remotely shown an interest in that. The Arab-Israeli Conflict encapsulated in a sentence? The Israelis always offer much or all of the land they win in the wars the Arabs start. The Arabs always refuse the offers because it would involve recognizing Israel. |
All your made on the spot stats (typical for SS) and your general too generalized and lobotimized view of the Jews in Germany pre War -- the only thing I find fascinating is what isn't there.
Not once have you mentioned that Israel, almost every road, every rooftop, every sewer system and every orchard is worked and built by underpaid, downtrodden, rights denied Arabs. Seems disingenuous for you to not mention this as you highlight all the "noble" intentions of Israel vis a vis its Arab brothers. And you wonder about my use of "racist"?
DD |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
If you want to come on here, and address a nuanced, historically complex problem simply in terms of "Israel is wrong, period," then I'm going to retain that belief. |
Fine words coming from the man who wrote:
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Israel who has repeatedly tried to make peace despite it's superior position only to be rejected. Israel who has raised standard of living in the region substantially. Israel who is trying to make the best of an extremely difficult situation. Israel who supports Western values over the hateful, destructive values of Islam.
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Translation: The Arabs are wrong, period.
Can we say BIGOTED HYPOCRITE?
Last edited by blade on Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
If you want to come on here, and address a nuanced, historically complex problem simply in terms of "Israel is wrong, period," then I'm going to retain that belief. |
Fine words coming from the man who wrote:
| Quote: |
Israel who has repeatedly tried to make peace despite it's superior position only to be rejected. Israel who has raised standard of living in the region substantially. Israel who is trying to make the best of an extremely difficult situation. Israel who supports Western values over the hateful, destructive values of Islam.
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Translation: The Arabs are wrong, period. |
You'd have a good point if not for the fact that, a number of times in this thread, I talked about things I considered to be quite valid criticisms of Israel. My stance is that Israel has made mistakes and deserves criticism for them, but the Arab nations in the region also bear substantial accountability for the status quo, and overall, the Arab nations in the region are less ethical by any reasonable standard. Pretty much every objective evaluation ever has concluded the same thing. Arab nations in the region are less free and less respectful of humanitarian rights; this is just a fact.
But again, you're just proving my point. I make a nuanced and slightly complex case, and you turn it into a black and white "Israel or Arabs: choose a team" proposition. I know you don't care about Arab human rights abuses, I know you don't care about Arab culpability regarding the status quo, and I know you see this as a purely black and white situation in which "Israel is bad, Arabs are good." It's only through such a black and white world view that Israel can come out looking like the worst party. Anyone with an even remotely nuanced understanding of the situation could never go for Israel's throat the way you and yours have in this thread.
I've yet to see a single anti-Israeli in this thread even try to rebutt the history articles Sergio posted either. I know, I know, facts aren't important, all that matters is emotional invective. But if you really think you have a case, you'll get to it. We all know it's not going to happen, though. Anti-Israelis don't do that kind of thing, they just post any small thing that they feel is against Israel, and ignore everything else. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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As bad as the actions of Hamas are, and they are horrible, I'm not responsible for what they do because I don't finance it. My elected officials don't support them. They're an awful government full of thugs, but one thing they're not is a reflection of me and America in general.
When Israel does something wrong, as an American taxpayer, I'm responsible for it. I paid for it. My elected officials supported it. That's why so many millions of people in the world hate Americans and why there are enough Americans scared to the point that our sports venues and airports have turned into a ridiculous hassle with all of the security.
Few Americans ever cared about the Hutus and Tutsis hacking up innocent human beings with machetes because the USA didn't get involved. We didn't give one tribe billions of dollars and have opposing factions killing thousands of Americans inside our own borders and scaring the pants off millions of other Americans with further threats. The only reason many Americans, including myself, complain about the Arab/Israeli conflict is because of its unnecessary toll on the USA's financial health, its toll on the mental health of many Americans, the lost lives of some Americans, the wasted time and hassle at sports events and airports, and the damage to our reputation.
If the USA would stay out of the Arab/Israeli conflict, we would be able to focus our money and attention on solving our problems here in the USA. The Arab/Israeli conflict and terrorism issues would seem as distant as Rwanda, except to a few religious nutters like Pat Robertson. |
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