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On Israeli war crimes and the legality of the war in Gaza
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject:

Reggie wrote:

As bad as the actions of Hamas are, and they are horrible, I'm not responsible for what they do because I don't finance it. My elected officials don't support them. They're an awful government full of thugs, but one thing they're not is a reflection of me and America in general.

When Israel does something wrong, as an American taxpayer, I'm responsible for it. I paid for it. My elected officials supported it. That's why so many millions of people in the world hate Americans and why there are enough Americans scared to the point that our sports venues and airports have turned into a ridiculous hassle with all of the security.

It seems to me this logic doesn't lead a condemnation of Israel in particular, but rather a condemnation of your own government for giving money to Israel. As such, I'm not sure how relevent it is to the topic of the thread. Mind you, I don't think there is anything wrong with being against America sending money to Israel.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Reggie wrote:

It is relevant because as the good citizens we are, in order to influence our government (as I am sure you would agree is appropriate) to stop enabling Israel to commit atrocities, we need to take the opportunity to make sure our fellow citizens realize what their tax dollars are paying for.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

Fox wrote:

Reggie wrote:

Well, arguments like "I don't feel we should give money to the Israeli government because of their handling of the Palestinian situation," seems legitimate enough to me, as long as it's being put forward in that fashion. Frankly, just saying, "I don't think we should give money to other nations period," seems legitimate enough to me. Not sure I'd always agree with it, but I can understand why someone would feel that way. But again, the same case can be made regarding Egypt, but Egypt certain doesn't receive the hate around here that Israel does. Indeed, despite me bringing up both Egypt's human rights record and Egypts involvement in the Palestinian issue, certain posters here insist on focusing on Israel and only Israel. That's the sort of anti-Israeli attitude I'm opposing here.

blade

Joined: 30 Jun 2007

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject:

Quote:

10. "[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities guaranteed their safety and rights as citizens of Israel."
-- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, New York Herald
Tribune, June 30, 1949
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/The%20Big%20Arab%20Lie.htm

Quote:

An interview frequently cited in Zionist historiography was with Monsignor George Hakim, then Greek Catholic bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948:

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly, and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."

Erskine Childers investigated these claims, and wrote in the Spectator May 12, 1961:

"I wrote to His Grace, asking for his evidence of such orders. I hold signed letters from him, with permission to publish, in which he has categorically denied ever alleging Arab evacuation orders; he states that no such orders were ever given. He says that his name has been abused for years; and that the Arabs fled through panic and forcible eviction by Jewish troops."[7].

Hakim later commented on this use of his words: "There is nothing in this statement to justify the construction which many propagandists had put on it...

At no time did I state that the flight of the refugees was due to the orders, explicit or implicit, of their leaders, military or political, to leave the country... On the contrary, no such orders were ever made... Such allegations are sheer concoctions and falsifications. ...as soon as hostilities began between Israel and the Arab States, it became the settled policy of the Government to drive away the Arabs..."
quoted in E. B. Childers, The Wordless Wish, in I. Abu-Lughod (ed) Transformation of Palestine, Northwestern University Press (1971), 197-198.

Quote:

'Doesn't he have anything more important to do?' was Ben-Gurion's reaction when told, during his visit to Haifa on 1 May 1948, that a local Jewish leader was trying to convince the Arabs not to leave. 'Drive them out!' was Ben-Gurion's instruction to Yigal Allon, as recorded by Yitzhak Rabin in a censored passage of his memoris published in 1979, with regard to the Arabs of Lydda after the city had been taken over on 11 July 1948." (Ben-Ami, Shlomo (2006). Scars of War, Wounds of Peace: The Israeli-Arab Tragedy. Oxford University Press, p. 44.)

Sergio Stefanuto

Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:11 am Post subject:

Blade summarized Fox:

Quote:

Translation: The Arabs are wrong, period.

That would be quite reasonable. Arab leaderships' mistakes regarding the Palestinians probably qualify them as easily amongst the worst and most contemptible people to have ever held political power. Stupidity, incompetence and unreason of truly breathtaking proportions. So much so that the Israelis, for their faults, are by far and away the more reasonable party.

Trevor

Joined: 16 Nov 2005

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:42 am Post subject:

Why should anyone take you seriously after that comment, Stef?

You see the internet works both ways. You can say pretty much whatever you want, but if you just wag your tongue, then the big dogs are just going to ignore you and you'll only end up squabbling with those who are willing to jump down in the mud with you.

You like to assign reading lists. I only have one book for you to read, to help you get in touch with your inner racist. I assigned the same book to Fox, who is also on my grey list -- bordering on ignorable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

Blade summarized Fox:

Quote:

Translation: The Arabs are wrong, period.

Sergio Stefanuto

Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:07 am Post subject:

I've read Orientalism already and see no compelling reason to re-visit it here

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

Fox wrote:

I don't think you are against Jews or Judaism. You do seem to be against a Jewish nation, though. This is why I use the term anti-Israeli instead of anti-Semite.

What do you mean "against a Jewish nation?"

You said you were against a Jewish nation (in fact, you called me wholly irrational when I was talking about the idea), you challenged me to give examples of Christian nations (completely ignoring Muslim ones despite me bringing them up a number of times), you declared the Christian nations "not Christian nations" despite their national religions and majority populations because they didn't 'steal land and oppress people' (no idea what that has to do with national religion), and then you hemmed by seemingly saying you were against national religions in general, despite the fact that you didn't seem to have a problem with the idea until it was convenient to your case in opposing Israel.

You are full of BS. I am not against a 'Jewish Nation' per se. I am against the idea that it was a good enough justification to rob kill and displace so many people, and that it is a good enough justification for the ongoing occupation we see today.

You are extremely dishonest in the way you misrepresent my stance.

Secondly, you pretend that I don't have any problem with the idea of a Christian nation or a Muslim nation. This is absolutely false. I think it is a very backward concept. The partition of Pakistan and India on religious grounds always struck me as yet another ugly example of the utter stupidity of our species. I have never claimed that any religion should have its own country. You are making it up. A contrary example (of what you pretend) is that I have often complained of the way the Wahabis hijacked Saudi Arabia, and forced non-Wahabis to adopt their rules and lifestyle. I do not believe any one religion has the right to a piece of territory and all those already living on it.

How about if the Scientologists or the Mormons were to demand their right to someone elses lands on these grounds? Few would accept it as reasonable. Few would say, "yes, half of Switzerland must go to the Romany Gypsies - they do not have a homeland and all ethnicities have a right to a homeland."

Fox wrote:

Look, Big Bird, I know what I've read, and you certainly wrote quite a bit. I really don't feel I need any more explanation from you on this matter. I share some of your beliefs, like wanting equality for Palestinians no matter which nation they currently reside it, and wanting an end to all human rights abuses in that area. I also am uncomfortable with some of the ideas you've expressed in this thread - a discomfort I've all ready expressed sufficiently. I really don't think this conversation will do anything except upset you and waste time you could be spending on your children. As such, I'm ending it. I'm sorry you're unhappy with some of the things I've said, but I stand by them. That's all. Thanks for the chat.

I'm happy not to waste too much more of my precious time dallying with you, as I consider you fraudulent in the way you attempt to represent my position and my motivations.

And all these assertions that you pull out your arse like "Big Bird Glorifies Islam" - WTF? You haven't got the first clue about my view on anything. You merely presume and make false assertions.

Good day to you.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

I've yet to see a single anti-Israeli in this thread even try to rebutt the history articles Sergio posted either. I know, I know, facts aren't important, all that matters is emotional invective. But if you really think you have a case, you'll get to it. We all know it's not going to happen, though. Anti-Israelis don't do that kind of thing, they just post any small thing that they feel is against Israel, and ignore everything else.

On another forum, in another galaxy, in a far away time, I argued to the death with Sergio on these issues. I think we both would prefer new dancing partners, so I'll leave it at that. Furthermore, I felt in the end that SS's position was rooted in his belief that Jews* are intrinsically more worthy than the Palestinian Muslims and Christians. To me a Jew has the same value as an Arab (whether Christian, Muslim or Athiest). He in turn seems unable to empathise with anyone of Arab background, and that attitude actually just depressed me in the end, so I generally avoid reading his posts on this topic.

* I mention Jews, rather than Israelis, in this instance, because Sergio's deep infatuation seems to be with the (so called) Jewish Race, rather than just the Israelis.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject:

Back on Topic:

UN find challenges Israeli version of attack on civilian building in Gaza war

Quote:

UN team find remains of aircraft-dropped bombs, contradicting Israeli report on military conduct during three-week conflict.

A new Israeli report defending the military's conduct in the Gaza war was challenged tonight after evidence emerged apparently contradicting one of its key findings.

Israel submitted a 46-page report to the UN on Friday saying its forces abided by international law throughout the three-week war last year. It was meant to avert the threat of international prosecutions and to challenge a highly critical UN inquiry by South African judge Richard Goldstone, which accused both Israel and Hamas of "grave breaches" of the fourth Geneva convention, war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.

The Israeli report looked in detail at a handful of incidents, including the attack on the al-Badr flour mill in northern Gaza, which was severely damaged.

The UN mine action team, which handles ordnance disposal in Gaza, has told the Guardian that the remains of a 500-pound Mk82 aircraft-dropped bomb were found in the ruins of the mill last January. Photographs of the front half of the bomb have been obtained by the Guardian.

This evidence directly contradicts the finding of the Israeli report, which challenged allegations that the building was deliberately targeted and specifically stated there was no evidence of an air strike. Goldstone, however, used the account of the air strike as a sign that Israel's attack on the mill was not mere collateral damage, but precisely targeted and a possible war crime.

The flour mill attack was not the most serious incident of the war: although nearly 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed in just three weeks, no one died at the mill. However, because it was a civilian building producing food � the only operational mill in Gaza � the incident received particular criticism from Goldstone, who concluded that the building was hit by an air strike, the attacks were "intentional and precise", and they were "carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population". He added that the attacks violated the fourth Geneva convention and customary international law and may constitute a war crime.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject:

Similarly

Holes are shot in army's denial of Gaza attack

Quote:

Israel claimed it did not bomb flour mill, but 500lb explosives find proves otherwise

Doubts have been cast on the Israeli rebuttal of the Goldstone Report, after it emerged last night that a bomb was defused last year at a Gaza flour mill that Israel had officially said did not come under air attack in the war.

The presence of a large part of the fractured Mark 82 bomb was reported to a demining team in late January 2009, and technicians were dispatched to defuse the 500lb device on 11 February.

The flour mill is the only one in Gaza, and the Goldstone Report, commissioned by the United Nations, said its destruction "was carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population".

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject:

-quote]The presence of a large part of the fractured Mark 82 bomb ][/quote] Riiight. And that presence could have only come about from a bomb being dropped directly there. There is ABSOLUTELY no other way it could have got there...like militants bombing the mill themselves and placing "the large part" of the Mark 82 bomb there...right?

blade

Joined: 30 Jun 2007

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:58 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Some observers have suggested that this turn of events could be understood as a �population exchange� � Arabs fled to Arab countries as Jews fled to the Jewish country, both as a result of the 1948 war, both under conditions which their side regards as forced evacuations. On the other hand, no one on the Arab side has suggested the obvious: if Jewish refugees were resettled on land vacated by fleeing Arabs, why not resettle Arab refugees on the lands of Jews who were forced to flee the Arab countries. One reason no one has suggested this is that no Arab state with the exception of Jordan will even allow Palestinians to be citizens. Another point: Taking into account the assets of the Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim lands, one can conclude that the Jews have already paid massive �reparations� to the Arabs whether warranted or not.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/The%20Big%20Arab%20Lie.htm

Quote:

In this inquiry, I propose only briefly to examine the last two of these three claims. The last, about a "solution," is that if the Arab host governments were willing, they could resettle the refugees quite easily outside Palestine-where, as Israel claims and as President Kennedy's 1960 election platform also had it, "there is room and-opportunity for them." This is not even remotely true. UNRWA's new chief, Dr. John Davis, has now bluntly and bravely warned against "facile assumptions that it rests with the host governments to solve the problem ... the simple truth is that the jobs ... do not exist today within the host countries." Nor can the jobs be created, Dr. Davis reports, because most of the refugees are unskilled peasants-precisely the host countries' worst problem among their own rapidly expanding populations

Erskine Childers: The Other Exodus May 12, 1961

Quote:

This is the Israeli charge, solemnly made every year and then reproduced around the world, that these refugees are-to quote a character in Leon Uris's Exodus-"kept caged like animals in suffering as a deliberate political weapon."

This, again, Dr. Davis has now bravely called a "misconception." The reality here is that the refugees themselves fanatically oppose any resettlement outside Palestine. UNRWA even had to persuade them that concrete huts, even in the U.N. camps, replacing their squalid tents and hovels, would not be the thin end of a resettlement wedge. Unlike other refugees, these refuse to move; they insist on going home

blade

Joined: 30 Jun 2007

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject:

Quote:

8. The most potent factor [in the flight of Palestinians] was the announcements made over the air by the Arab-Palestinian Higher Executive, urging all Haifa Arabs to quit... It was clearly intimated that Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
-- London Economist Oct. 2, 1948)
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/The%20Big%20Arab%20Lie.htm

Quote:

I decided to turn up the relevant (October 2) 1948 issue of the 'Economist.' The passage that as literally, gone around the world was certainly there, but I had already noticed one curious word in it. This was a description of the massacre at Deir Yassin as an "incident." No impartial observer of Palestine in 1948 calls what happened at this avowedly nonbelligerent, unarmed Arab village in April, 1948, an "incident"-any more than Lidice is called an "incident." Over 250 old men, women and children were deliberately butchered, stripped and mutilated or thrown into a well, by men of the Zionist Irgun Zvai Leumi.

Seen in its place in the full `Economist' article, it was at once clear that Dr. Kohn's quotation was a second-hand account, inserted as that of an eye-witness at Haifa, by the journal's own correspondent who had not been in that city at the time. And in the rest of the same article, written by the Economist correspondent himself, but never quoted by Israel, the second great wave of refugees were described as "all destitute, as the Jewish troops gave them an hour, in which to quit, but simultaneously requisitioned all transport."

Erskine Childers: The Other Exodus May 12, 1961

Reggie

Joined: 21 Sep 2009

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:14 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Egyptians are victims of Israel, just like myself and other American taxpayers.

The first paragraph in this recent news article speaks volumes about the Egyptian "government." http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/303314,ruling-party-mp-egypts-next-president-needs-us-israeli-approval.html

Quote:

Egypt's next president needs would need to be approved by the United States and Israel, an influential ruling party lawmaker said in remarks published Tuesday. "Unfortunately, I do not think someone could become president of Egypt if there were an American veto against him, or even an Israeli objection," Mustafa al-Fiqi, head of parliament's Committee on Foreign Relations and an influential lawmaker from the ruling National Democratic Party, told the daily al-Masry al-Youm.

The United States and Israel "will open or close the doors" before the candidates, al-Fiqi said.

"I think that they welcome Gamal Mubarak more than others for the simple reason that they believe that whoever you know is better," al-Fiqi said in reference to President Hosny Mubarak's son.

Somehow, I don't think Israel and the USA are as popular with the Egyptian people as we are with Egypt's politicians. Laughing

Clearly, Egypt is governed indirectly from Tel Aviv at the expense of the American taxpayer.

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