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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| Egyptians are victims of Israel, just like myself and other American taxpayers. |
No, they aren't. They are responsible for forming a government capable of running their nation as they see fit. If they choose to run it in a corrupt, inhumanitarian fashion, there will be consequences. One of those consequences is vulnerability to outside influence. They've no one to blame for this but themselves.
This idea that the entire world except Israel, America, China, and a select few European states are the only truly independent actors is just silly. Every nation is responsible for itself, first and foremost. More importantly, the people of each nation are responsible for their government. If you have a serious problem with how the American government is doing business, get involved. Raise funds for candidates you feel can turn the system around. Organization a revolution. Abandon citizenship. You have options open to you, but you don't pursue them. You're by no means a victim. At worst, you're equivalent to a dissatisfied customer who stays with his current provider because he sees no better option. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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This link from BB deserves more attention because:
A. Israel lied about it, screaming about how unfair the Goldstone Report was in reporting it. (Unexploded 500 lbs bombs don't lie).
B. They bombed the only flour factory the Palestinians had. Obviously, flour is important to civilian infrastructure since it is a central ingredient in their food.
C. There was no military purpose whatsoever there, so they cannot say that the bombing was done in defense. Clearly, they were trying to damage the lives of civilians. Sure, after the fact, it is easy to say that someone was firing from there (how can it be proven or disproven?) but the fact remains that Israel lied, lied, lied.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holes-are-shot-in-armys-denial-of-gaza-attack-1886331.html
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Similarly
Holes are shot in army's denial of Gaza attack
| Quote: |
Israel claimed it did not bomb flour mill, but 500lb explosives find proves otherwise
Doubts have been cast on the Israeli rebuttal of the Goldstone Report, after it emerged last night that a bomb was defused last year at a Gaza flour mill that Israel had officially said did not come under air attack in the war.
The presence of a large part of the fractured Mark 82 bomb was reported to a demining team in late January 2009, and technicians were dispatched to defuse the 500lb device on 11 February.
The flour mill is the only one in Gaza, and the Goldstone Report, commissioned by the United Nations, said its destruction "was carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population". |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| No, they aren't. They are responsible for forming a government capable of running their nation as they see fit. If they choose to run it in a corrupt, inhumanitarian fashion, there will be consequences. One of those consequences is vulnerability to outside influence. They've no one to blame for this but themselves. |
There are Egyptians fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to bankrupt America. These guys cannot be blamed for the current government in Egypt. These Egyptians are doing everything they can reasonably be expected to do to undermine American financial/political influence in the Arab world, and it's looking like they're going to accomplish what they set out to do.
| Fox wrote: |
| This idea that the entire world except Israel, America, China, and a select few European states are the only truly independent actors is just silly. |
Of course it is. All South American countries, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Thailand, and many, many other countries in the world are independent. Unfortunately, the US government is run by the highest bidders. In fact, we should go ahead and appoint the CEO of Goldman, the president of Archer Daniels Midland, the chairman of the board at Exxon, the president of Israel, and so on to Congress to cut out the middlemen currently running the charade of "democracy" in Washington. We're no longer a democracy. We still have a representative government, but representatives are no longer elected with votes. They're elected with dollars. I have one vote and Lloyd Blankfein has one vote, but I'll leave it for you to figure out whether or not he and I have equal political influence.
| Fox wrote: |
| Every nation is responsible for itself, first and foremost. More importantly, the people of each nation are responsible for their government. If you have a serious problem with how the American government is doing business, get involved. Raise funds for candidates you feel can turn the system around. Organization a revolution. Abandon citizenship. You have options open to you, but you don't pursue them. You're by no means a victim. At worst, you're equivalent to a dissatisfied customer who stays with his current provider because he sees no better option. |
I've always voted for third party people who never win, but as far as taking a more active role, why bother? The US economy is WAY past the point of no return. There's going to be radical political change after the financial collapse of the US, just like there was in the USSR, so everyone may as well sit in the La-Z-Boy with a cold Pabst Blue Ribbon in each hand and observe the current bunch of clowns in Washington politically hang themselves with their own rope. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| No, they aren't. They are responsible for forming a government capable of running their nation as they see fit. If they choose to run it in a corrupt, inhumanitarian fashion, there will be consequences. One of those consequences is vulnerability to outside influence. They've no one to blame for this but themselves. |
There are Egyptians fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to bankrupt America. These guys cannot be blamed for the current government in Egypt. These Egyptians are doing everything they can reasonably be expected to do to undermine American financial/political influence in the Arab world, and it's looking like they're going to accomplish what they set out to do. |
They're also not indicative of the average Egyptian. That tiny minority is doing everything it can reasonably be expected to do, but the average Egyptian isn't.
| Reggie wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| This idea that the entire world except Israel, America, China, and a select few European states are the only truly independent actors is just silly. |
Of course it is. All South American countries, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Thailand, and many, many other countries in the world are independent. Unfortunately, the US government is run by the highest bidders. In fact, we should go ahead and appoint the CEO of Goldman, the president of Archer Daniels Midland, the chairman of the board at Exxon, the president of Israel, and so on to Congress to cut out the middlemen currently running the charade of "democracy" in Washington. We're no longer a democracy. We still have a representative government, but representatives are no longer elected with votes. They're elected with dollars. I have one vote and Lloyd Blankfein has one vote, but I'll leave it for you to figure out whether or not he and I have equal political influence. |
This can be mitigated with legislation, but the only true solution is for Americans in general to wake up and stop letting advertising affect their vote. Either way, this has nothing to do with Egypt and it's citizens -- or American and its citizens -- being "victims."
| Reggie wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Every nation is responsible for itself, first and foremost. More importantly, the people of each nation are responsible for their government. If you have a serious problem with how the American government is doing business, get involved. Raise funds for candidates you feel can turn the system around. Organization a revolution. Abandon citizenship. You have options open to you, but you don't pursue them. You're by no means a victim. At worst, you're equivalent to a dissatisfied customer who stays with his current provider because he sees no better option. |
I've always voted for third party people who never win, but as far as taking a more active role, why bother? |
"Why bother" is precisely the attitude the people you complain about want you to have. If you think, "Why bother?" then you're not a victim, you're a willing participant (or, alternatively, if you flee the country you're just a quitter; I admit I pretty much fall into this category, and other people here might as well). If you don't want to participate beyond casting your ballot, that's fine; I'm not going to blame you at all for it. I won't even blame you if you don't want to vote at all. You have every right to live your life how you see fit. But choices have consequences. When you live that way, and then go on to complain about being a victim, you really don't have much of a case. You're empowering the government with your complacency.
| Reggie wrote: |
| The US economy is WAY past the point of no return. There's going to be radical political change after the financial collapse of the US, just like there was in the USSR, so everyone may as well sit in the La-Z-Boy with a cold Pabst Blue Ribbon in each hand and observe the current bunch of clowns in Washington politically hang themselves with their own rope. |
I don't entirely disagree. The difference is, I also don't claim to be a victim of the system. Americans aren't victims of the system, they're victims of their own collective apathy and unwillingness to be realistic rather than idealistic. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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It's easy for an American to criticize the Egyptians for being afraid to show enough opposition, but look at the Arab jail the United States government sent Canadian citizen Maher Arar. Those jails over there aren't like the jail on the Andy Griffith Show and the guards aren't as kind as Barney and Andy. Egyptians who run their mouths too much with political opposition talk get thrown in jail over there. That's the Egyptian government my American taxes bankroll at the behest of the Israel lobby. Is it any wonder Egyptians feel their own destiny is so far out of their own control that some Egyptians take on US forces in Iraq and one Egyptian allegedly flew a passenger airplane full of people into a highrise office building in New York City?
The bottom line about Egypt as it pertains to this thread is that a democratically elected Egyptian government would get along with the Palestinians and treat them like human beings. It's unfair to blame Egyptians for the policies of Mubarak when he's basically just middle management employed by Israel and paid with my money.
Most Americans in the private sector really are victims. We're like sexual rape victims who are too afraid or too apathetic to fight back, except we're victims of financial rape. In my case, I can bend over figuratively and accept the financial rape or I can refuse to pay taxes and end up having to bend over literally for Bubba in federal prison. I'm too pretty to go to jail, so I have no choice but to pay taxes and watch my money go to the johns who have paid the US government to pimp me financially.  |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| It's easy for an American to criticize the Egyptians for being afraid to show enough opposition, but look at the Arab jail the United States government sent Canadian citizen Maher Arar. |
Please don't misunderstand me. Standing up against your government -- especially in a situation where it's warranted -- is never an easy thing. You're risking a huge amount, ranging from merely time and money, to your freedom, to even your life. I in no way intend to trivialize this. However, because of how the world is, it is at times required.
None the less, allowing each nation sovereignty means that the people of said nation are ultimately the ones who are responsible for the governments they form and allow to govern them. Failure to do an adequate job in this regard has very unfortunate consequences. I wish it weren't so, but it is. Blaming the problems of the people of Egypt on America and Israel might have a certain appeal to some, but it's not constructive at all, because it ignores the true problem.
I want the people of Egypt to live productive, peaceful, relatively free lives. This will only happen when the people of Egypt get their act together.
| Reggie wrote: |
| Most Americans in the private sector really are victims. We're like sexual rape victims who are too afraid or too apathetic to fight back, except we're victims of financial rape. In my case, I can bend over figuratively and accept the financial rape or I can refuse to pay taxes and end up having to bend over literally for Bubba in federal prison. |
Alternative, more nuanced options include:
1) Paying your taxes for the present while organizing people and getting people involved in hopes of changing things.
2) Paying your taxes for now while fund-raising for candidates who genuinely might make a difference. These people exist, even if they're comparatively rare.
3) Leaving the country in the exact same way you'd leave any other provider of service if you were unhappy with the service provided. I know people get emotionally attached to their country, but it needn't be so.
I don't blame you for not choosing these other options; they're hard work, and like most people, I'm sure you just want to get on with your life. But, again, complacency empowers the very people who you are against here, so speaking as if you're a victim isn't exactly accurate. You're thinking and behaving exactly as they want you to think. |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
This link from BB deserves more attention because:
A. Israel lied about it, screaming about how unfair the Goldstone Report was in reporting it. (Unexploded 500 lbs bombs don't lie).
B. They bombed the only flour factory the Palestinians had. Obviously, flour is important to civilian infrastructure since it is a central ingredient in their food.
C. There was no military purpose whatsoever there, so they cannot say that the bombing was done in defense. Clearly, they were trying to damage the lives of civilians. Sure, after the fact, it is easy to say that someone was firing from there (how can it be proven or disproven?) but the fact remains that Israel lied, lied, lied.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holes-are-shot-in-armys-denial-of-gaza-attack-1886331.html
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Similarly
Holes are shot in army's denial of Gaza attack
| Quote: |
Israel claimed it did not bomb flour mill, but 500lb explosives find proves otherwise
Doubts have been cast on the Israeli rebuttal of the Goldstone Report, after it emerged last night that a bomb was defused last year at a Gaza flour mill that Israel had officially said did not come under air attack in the war.
The presence of a large part of the fractured Mark 82 bomb was reported to a demining team in late January 2009, and technicians were dispatched to defuse the 500lb device on 11 February.
The flour mill is the only one in Gaza, and the Goldstone Report, commissioned by the United Nations, said its destruction "was carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population". |
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There is always a purpose to destroying key civilian structures.
one of these reasons includes demoralizing the enemy.
Sometimes those that know nothing of war forget this.
Israel is at war with those that would seek to destroy her.
She does what she must to survive, she survives.
Hell, she THRIVES.
_+_+
Wes |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
There is always a purpose to destroying key civilian structures.
one of these reasons includes demoralizing the enemy.
Sometimes those that know nothing of war forget this.
Israel is at war with those that would seek to destroy her.
She does what she must to survive, she survives.
Hell, she THRIVES. |
It is fascinating that zionists always put Israel's viciousness in terms of survival. The Palestinians aren't going to destroy her. This is not about her survival. Why all the rhetoric? I've said it before and I'll say it again:
So they can be the victim, victim, victim, always the victim, no matter what they do, no matter how vicious it is. Victim, victim, victim. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| wesharris wrote: |
There is always a purpose to destroying key civilian structures.
one of these reasons includes demoralizing the enemy.
Sometimes those that know nothing of war forget this. |
So in that case war crimes are justified?  |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| wesharris wrote: |
There is always a purpose to destroying key civilian structures.
one of these reasons includes demoralizing the enemy.
Sometimes those that know nothing of war forget this. |
So in that case war crimes are justified? |
In war there can be no war crime .
Guys War is hell.
The idea is to make it so completely hellish as to demoralize the opposition. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| wesharris wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| wesharris wrote: |
There is always a purpose to destroying key civilian structures.
one of these reasons includes demoralizing the enemy.
Sometimes those that know nothing of war forget this. |
So in that case war crimes are justified? |
In war there can be no war crime . |
So then all those Nuremberg convictions, etc., and the entire body of international law addressing this is all - a mistake?
How about sticking bayonets through babies then? That'll really demoralize 'em, eh?  |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| wesharris wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| wesharris wrote: |
There is always a purpose to destroying key civilian structures.
one of these reasons includes demoralizing the enemy.
Sometimes those that know nothing of war forget this. |
So in that case war crimes are justified? |
In war there can be no war crime . |
So then all those Nuremberg convictions, etc., and the entire body of international law addressing this is all - a mistake?
How about sticking bayonets through babies then? That'll really demoralize 'em, eh? |
A joke.
Not a mistake.
Nuremberg was a show .
The victors decide what is right.
The Allies happened to be victorious. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| I believe the state of Israel should cease to exist, and the land should revert to the Palestine where Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived peaceably side by side before the creation of Israel. |
This is called the one-state solution. It is the only solution where there can possibly be lasting peace. |
�The two-state solution is starting to look impractical�
Jonathan Cook, Foreign Correspondent
* Last Updated: December 31. 2009
NAZARETH // The biggest effect for Israel�s 1.3 million Palestinian citizens of its assault on Gaza last winter has been to smash any remaining illusions that there is a future for the minority in a Jewish state, the community�s leaders have agreed.
They say that minority voters have almost completely abandoned Zionist parties, even left-wing ones, believing that none is really interested in a peaceful solution to the country�s conflict with the Palestinians.
That was reflected in February, one month after Operation Cast Lead ended, in the lowest turnout ever posted by the Palestinian minority in an election. Only 53 per cent voted, down more than 25 percentage points since the mid-1990s, in the more optimistic Oslo period.
Haneen Zoubi, who was elected to the Israeli parliament for the first time in 2009, pointed out that the minority�s share of the vote for Jewish parties had fallen to an all-time low of 17 per cent. Back in the early 1990s half of Israel�s Palestinian voters supported such parties.
�More and more Palestinian citizens are understanding that Israel is not serious about negotiations for peace,� she said. �People are disillusioned with a leadership that is simply trying to buy time and manage the conflict rather than solve it.�
That view was shared by Mohammed Zeidan, director of the Arab Association for Human Rights, based in Nazareth. �We need a new way of dealing with Israel. The two-state solution is starting to look impractical and that has given a significant push to the idea that Palestinians inside Israel should be campaigning for a single state for both peoples.�
This new-found political confidence was manifest during the Gaza incursion, Mr Zeidan said, when Palestinian citizens held the biggest protests in their history. The largest, in the northern city of Sakhnin, drew a crowd of at least 100,000.
�There is much more certainty among the Palestinian public and leadership inside Israel that it has a right to speak out on pan-Palestinian issues,� he said.
�Once, we tended to remain on the sidelines, waiting to take our political cues from the Palestinian leadership outside Israel. Now, the Palestinian Authority is seen to be damaging the popular consensus among Palestinians and people here are looking for their own answers.�
more at link |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Tuesday, 05 January 2010 12:21
Zionism: The Road to Self-destruction
By Roger Higginson
"The real road to peace and justice lies in the creation of a single state in historical Palestine where religion is a matter for the individual, and everyone has the same rights under a single legal system."
On 4 December 2009, the Israeli newspaper Ha�aretz reported that the United States had failed to persuade its partners in the so-called �Quartet� to issue a declaration of support for Israel�s temporary pause in settlement construction. The four members of the �Quartet� are the EU, the UN, Russia and the USA. So who was the party-pooper? Russia, apparently. However, more interesting than who said no was the reason why: Russia had objected to any declaration supporting the Jewish identity of the state of Israel.
In doing so, it has focussed on one of the key characteristics of the Israeli state which sets it apart from nearly every other country in the world, particularly in the Western world, of which it pretends so hard to be a part. Israel is an ethnocracy; a country which defines its citizens as belonging to a particular cultural or religious group � in its case, those who define themselves as Jewish.
Although it is physically located in the Middle East, Israel is unremittingly hostile to the Arabic culture and dominant religion in that region, Islam. Just about every aspect of its Government�s policy is driven by an uncompromising determination to maintain a Jewish majority in its population. Palestinian refugees are refused the right to return to their homes � enshrined in international law ‑ while Jews from the worldwide diaspora are given advice, help and financial support to set up home in Israel even when they have no family or historical links with the country.
The Jewish National Fund develops land in Israel for the exclusive use of Jews. Palestinian Arab (and non-Arab) citizens of Israel are not allowed to bring to the country an Arab spouse, who is normally resident in the Palestinian territory occupied post-1967 by Israel, in order to start a family. Why? Because a growing non-Jewish population in Israel would threaten the �demographic balance�.
The standard Zionist response to such injustice is that the Jewish people have a right to a state of their own. When it�s put in such terms, one might be inclined to be sympathetic, especially considering the horrors they suffered under the Nazis during World War II. But Israel is different: when other groups during the twentieth century have struggled for national self-determination, they have done so while seeking independence from foreign domination. Algeria is a typical example of this. The Algerians stayed where they were and � eventually ‑ the French colonial power withdrew.
continues at link |
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